Who is God?

And unpleasant posters are even better on stepping on people!

MiceElf, a simple faith would be fine for me.

Elephants don't even notice ants and step on them. Hmmm sounds like God.

As ever, it all depends on what you mean by God. It's very easy to set up a straw man and demolish him.

There are, I suspect, but I may be wrong, many thoughtful enquiring Christians and others of different religious traditions, on this site, who are not lacking in intelligence and who are well able to see to see the failures of the institutional church.

That does not make them disrespectful of agnostics or atheists. However, the level of 'debate' on here does seem to be simplistic and lacking in depth and rigor. But maybe this isn't the place for it.

If I may respectfully suggest it to members who may be interested in matters such as this, there is a website called Ship of Fools. It is for debate on all matters religious, and there are many, many atheists on there who post regularly and debate with enthusiasm and rigor - and are responded to by those who disagree.

Greatnan Please read the post again. There is no reference to atheists! I have said it before but you didn't appear to take it on board. I was defending Christians not attacking anyone else.

It seems to me that for some reason completely unknown to me you do not like me and seem to think that whatever I post is directed at you. When I choose to say something to you I use your name.

Thank you Nannym, Nanadogsbody (I like the name!) and *MiceElf for your support and for reading my posts as they were intended to be read. Also my thanks for all the PMs of support.

You're absolutely right Jess. The Church deliberately worked with the secular powers in the Middle Ages (and later) to maintain the power hierarchy. Each man born to his station at the behest of God was used to stop people complaining and trying to better their lot in life. Kept the serfs in their place.

The early Church had female leaders but after a few centuries they decided to change the role of women and make sure that they were always subservient to men. This still happens today.....only male priests in the RC Church. To make this more palatable they introduced the cult of the obedient virgin....something that women were supposed to aspire to.

It seems to me that the basic teaching of Jesus was that we were all supposed to be nice to each other and help each other when necessary. Seems a pretty good way to try to live. Unfortunately other men have perverted this teaching into a huge religious machine that I doubt Jesus would even recognise as being based on his teachings.

See, when that's a perfectly acceptable way of stating non-belief.

Others take note.

Beautifully put, Jess. Having watched fom the sidelines, it's been at times amusing, and some moments have been like watching an inevitable car crash. Hopefully, the issues underlying the differences of opinion are now exposed, and Greatnan can feel able to post her opinions without being accused of things she hasn't done. It isn't personal to state your beliefs nor to be challenged about them. In last night's opening ceremony, Stephen Hawkins reminded us about curiosity and it's value in science and humanity. Curiosity is what has led me to believe there is no God (note: I am not accusing Christians of lacking in curiosity!)

Oh that's great coming from you Nanadogsbody. It was after your post comparing someone's religion with believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden that started things going awry!

Can't you really see how that would be offensive?

Or to mention how you have helped your children where it helps to explain your devastation when they are, at best, unappreciative.

I have to confess (no joke intended) that I have not read the whole of this thread. Apologies if I am repeating a point previously made.
Two interesting implications have been made that are perhaps worth rational challenge Alison

One is that it is some merit in suffering in silence. Is there? It appears to me that this is a trick played on the poor and sick by the rich and powerful - don't whinge, don't say it's not fair - just put up with it and you will be rewarded in heaven. For those of us who are not believers this just looks like a confidence trick. It suits rich and powerful nicely - you can use, abuse and exploit them and tell them suffering is good for their souls. Many political movements have been started by people who refused to suffer in silence. Trade unionism. Civil rights. Feminism - I could go on.
The other was that there is some merit in doing good works and talking about it.
Is this central to Christian ethics? And if so, why? I can't remember if there is a new testament origin? Seems to me that there are some humble Christians that hide their light under bushels (is that the reference?) and some who are very un-humble. Evangelists shout about their faith. Sally army march down the street. The Pope has the trappings of a very wealthy emperor. Is there a conflict here between trumpeting your faith and hiding your good works. Why?
But there is surely, faith or not, some virtue in talking about, say voluntary work. It might encourage others. I have talked here in the past about being a school governor. What is wrong with that? Why would it be somehow more virtuous not to talk about it?

Well said Nannym.

Nor can I keep quiet any longer nannym, well said. I left this thread in disgust yesterday. I cannot believe this is being carried over to another day. I welcome and endorse Ariadne's last post. I suggest that certain GNs read it again carefully.

I really can't keep quiet any longer!! Why is AlisonMA being subjected to such treatment when she only made a general comment that was immediately picked up as a personal remark. There ARE members of GN who have remarked more than once on how good they have been to their families, not that that is to be scorned of course, but I am sure that there are other members who have been equally generous with time/money who choose not to broadcast it. Give the woman a break of goodness' sake!!

I refer you to Alison's post at 10.50.47

'I know that some of you will find negative comments about these examples and I have only put them here to show that Christians suffer just as much as anyone else. Perhaps it is because they suffer in silence tha some don't realise it. Also they often help people out but tend not to go round saying how good they are. It is noticable that some GNs do a lot of talking about how brilliant/good/clever they are but this is not something that Christans tend to do'

I took great exception to this implication that atheist members boast about ourselves. A simple retraction from Alison would have saved all the subsequent 'debate'. It had nothing to do with religion.

Ariadne,
This "debate" has brought to light the fact that basicly whether folks have a faith or not, we all seem to endorse "doing unto others as you would be done by"!

That we try to respect a persons right to have a different point of view ,even though we strongly disagree with it!

People become very involved in this type of debate, because they often find that it means re-examining their own thoughts - not always easy. As I said at the beginning, "keep an open mind"!.

I thank you all for your interest and contributions to this very contraversial subject, and hope that it has not caused any bitterness between the companions on here!

I'd like to tell a story concerning the pains we endure in our lifetime.

A piece of metal is heated and beaten, turning it into a sword. The sword is heated in the furnace until white hot, then plunged into oil. The craftsman knows by the colours showing on the hot metal, when the process is complete, it is left to cool, before the final work on it becoming a strong weapon!

This is similar to our lives. We become stronger by facing and conquering, or coming to terms with, our adversities. Not easy by any means, but we should try.

I went through a bad depression in my youth, so much so, that I went onto the roof of where I worked, approached the edge and contemplated jumping off.
This is the "corny" bit - I heard a voice in my head saying "Get back you stupid bugger. you have a life to live"
OK, so it was my common sense comig to the rescue, but it is still very real to me!
Later I wrote a verse, very simple,but true for me.
"The best thing to do when you're feeling blue,
Is to help others, that will help you"!
I was about 18 or 19 at the time. (That was a long time ago now!!)

Greatnan Better beware - if the invisible sky friend is reading this thread, she'll send a bolt of lightening to zap your hard drive. Now that really would be hell. Oh dear, she might zap mine too. I wonder if having an Apple Mac will save me?? Perhaps not, bearing in mind the bad press against apple in the bible.
Better go before I get into trouble.....

Nanaej I agree with you completely.

If there is a god, he hates me! I have just lost my signal through a torrential rainstorm, just as I was enjoying 'Have I got old news for you'.

Much as I hate religion, I don't think it can be blamed for the trouble on this thread - it was going well until 10.50.47!

You've read it all Ariadne?! Even the long bits?!

Respect!

Well, I have now read through this whole thread, and I can only say that this is what discussion about religion always provokes - dissension and dispute in what is usually a fairly coherent and sensible community of intelligent, sensible and compassionate human beings. If any supernatural being is guiding this, it is a mischievous and manipulative one. If not, then we are demeaning ourselves and our personal codes.

Quite, jingl - in reply to your post about people getting hurt.

I wouldn't put naked photos on any site now - 30 years ago perhaps. I used to think I would be happy to use my real name, until a few months ago.

and some ofus have been as foolish as Harry and put pictues on the site too