Who is God?

Splitting hairs there feetlebaum.

gramps@ "remember that we should always respect another persons beliefs, even if you don't agree with them!"

No. One can, and should, respect a person, but there is no reason to respect their beliefs.

What if the other person was Anders Breivik, or Ian Brady, say -- would you want to respect their beliefs?

Unsupported beliefs are not worthy of respect.

Can I just gently say that I am not sure these threads about religion get us very far. I suspect that we have reached an age where most of us are fairly fixed in our beliefs and constantly going over the same ground only seems to cause people to get cross or upset. I am all for healthy debate, but there are so many things going on in the world that we could be discussing.

We ALL suffer - those of faith and those of none; and many do so in silence - again those of faith and those of none.
Whatever our personal beliefs we are all part of the human condition with its joys and suffering.

I cannot say that I have noticed people on here saying what good things they do - they say that they wish to strive towards behaving well, whatever their faith or lack thereof. The aspiration to do good seems to be a common human trait thankfully. Sometimes we succeed, and sometimes we do not.

Marelli, there often is something rather special about downs people, especially the girls (I have found). Very kind and affectionate. No 'guile' about them.

There is no point in not calling a spade a spade you know. That helps no one.

I would love to see any post where one of us claimed to be clever. We might have said we are still able to be moral beings in spite of being atheists, but that is in response to some of the stupid questions we get asked about the source of our morality.
Alison - you seem to throw around an awful lot of accusations - could you give us some examples so we can judge for outselves?

AlisoMA, why would your friend NOT look on her Downs Syndrome children as blessings? And why did you think they were 'lovely people'?

Bags. I think the person in the Thai jail found God in spite of the miserable situation she was in.

Geddit?

No chance Greatnan.

Alison great post.

Very well said Mishap

If anyone's interested, they might like to read 'Godless Morality' by Richard Holloway who used to be Bishop of Edinburgh but has since become a well known humanist writer and broadcaster.

The person in the Thai jail: was she released because she found god? "she 'found' god and ... was released". Or is it that she found god in jail (so to speak!), served out her sentence, and was then released and continued to have religious faith, after not having had it before?

Just teasing. I'm sure you see the problem

Alison, I think your examples could be used of atheists and agnostics as well. I think you are being unfair to generalise about religious people not boasting about their good works and atheists being the opposite. How would one know if religion/faith is never mentioned? It usually isn't in my experience. Most people avoid the subject like the plague.

Also, why assume that it is only religious people who are totally accepting of Downs syndrome children? It may well be mainly religious people who oppose the use of abortion for any reason, but Downs syndrome is not the only reason people want abortions.

Going to the gym to get away from the flack!

absent I think that is unfair. I know Christians who have suffered dreadfully and as a result their faith has grown stronger. I will give you a simple illustration, not of suffering but of faith. I know a Christian who gave birth to a Down's syndrome child and as a result looked into abortion in detail. She concluded that she was against it and started showing everyone she knew a film called The Silent Scream. She went on to have another downs child and when I saw them recently they were in their early 20s and both lovely people, the girl being a born performed and very musical. She saw them as a blessing as did her older 'normal' daughter.

Many years ago I read about an atheist who was in a Thai prison accused of drugs smuggling. Apparently it was dreadful place, dirty and overcrowded. After some years she 'found God' and eventually was released. She had certainly suffered.

I know that some of you will find negative comments about these examples and I have only put them here to show that Christians suffer just as much as anyone else. Perhaps it is because they suffer in silence tha some don't realise it. Also they often help people out but tend not to go round saying how good they are. It is noticable that some GNs do a lot of talking about how brilliant/good/clever they are but this is not something that Christans tend to do. I note that Gramps only said he had helped when challenged about it.

Perhaps, jingle, you could leave people who are offended to speak for themselves?

And no, I don't think people should be free to say absolutely anything – that's not what freedom of speech means – but ridiculing belief in fairies or angels is not offensive. It's just ridicule. Robust beliefs are immune to ridicule so it shouldn't actually matter what other people think, or say they think.

That would be patronising, jings. Besides, they are just indulging in emotional blackmail (possibly without realising it) – 'you can't say that because my feelings might be hurt'. It's called suppression of free speech.

(I don't mean my feelings btw. I'm quite capable of telling you to stuff off. Not that I would of course )

See, Nanadogsbody, that's the kind of comment that gets atheists a bad name.

I know that you and others on GN can see no reason to respect other people's beliefs, but couldn't you just manage a bit of compassion for their feelings?

kittylester There are some Christians who believe that suffering is a blessing from god as it enables a human to share some of Christ's suffering. I wouldn't mind betting that they have never been in pain themselves.

Thank you for kind comments.

Gramps - I do not believe that anything leaves the body when we die. The atoms all remain, but the system that collates those atoms into a human being fails. What we see as the "self" (that ceases when we die) is I believe part of the organism that is a human being.

Working for a brain injury service convinced me that the idea of "self" is entirely brain-based. I saw so many people whose self/personality was totally changed by damage to a particular part of the brain. And my own DD underwent a total personality change when she suffered a severe ante-natal depression - on this occasion her self/personality was changed chemically by the pregnancy hormones, and she reverted to her normal self when this ended.

This is probably a predictable question from me, but where was anyone's god when my son was struck down by a stroke at the age of 35? Or when dreadful things happen to other people's loved ones?

I hope we are all agreed that there is no monopoly of goodness, kindness and morality by believers. I don't think Gramps implied that there was.

Mishap Wonderfully expressed.

I'm sorry about upsetting you, namewise!
I'll call you Vamps ,if ok with you?

( Do you think someone may muddle the "V" and "G" , there's quite a large "amp"erage between us!