Who is God?

Or women.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" Edmund Burke.

Agreed bags, though sadly the belief that one is right and everyone else is wrong does lead to conflict.

I do not repsect evil beliefs and, to be honest, I don't respect the people who hold them very much either.

Clearly, the beliefs of the extremists in Pakistan belong to the category of wrong beliefs because they end up hurting others and suppressing the good actions of the majority, who become afraid to speak out for fear of violent reprisals.

And we can all argue about whether this or that belief holds up to logical and rational scrutiny better than that or this belief simply because it is interesting. Of course, if anyone wants to believe something that someone else says is irrational, that's a valid choice too. But always with the proviso, well spelled out by greatnan and nanadog and vamp above, that a belief does not lead to actions that hurt others.

That about sums it up VQ

I was listening to 'Sunday' on Radio 4 this morning and there was an interesting item about the Christian girl in Pakistan who was accused of blasphemy for burning a page or two of the Koran - now a muslim cleric has been accused of planting the evidence on her. One mulsim scholar was interviewed and he said that the bulk of people in Pakistan were opposed to religious intolerance, but they were too afraid of the minority of extremists to speak out. One man who did was assassinated.

Well said Greatnan. People can believe whatever they like as long as no one is hurt by their beliefs.

Yet, there comes a time when people have to stand up against ignorance and tyranny. Often religion is used as a tool to dominate and hold in fear the uneducated or the weak. Sometimes it goes further, as in the case of modern extremism, of all persuasions. Christianity too has its dark ages; witch hunts and Inquisitions for example.

GA - I hope you can see from the last few posts that people of good will, like Gramps and myself, can be perfectly pleasant to each other and respect the other's right to hold any beliefs they choose.
Of course, I am sure nobody can claim to respect all beliefs, as that would mean respecting the beliefs of those Nigerians who have accused hundreds of women of witchcraft and incarcerated them in 'witch -camps', or the 'pastors' in East London who have helped families to 'beat the devil' out of children. We can say 'I think your belief is wrong, but I respect your right to hold it unless it leads you into hurting others, or unless you try to impose your beliefs on others'.

Have stayed up until silly o'clock reading this thread and now I'm too tired to comment.

Thank you, Gramps, that is much appreciated.

I send thoughts for your great sorrow, and hope that your inner strength will sustain you Greatnan! xx

Thank you, Gramps - I didn't think for one minute that you would doubt my ability to lead a good and useful life (although I have had some odd questions from some believers?)
I have had some very dark patches in my own life (I have one great sorrow at the moment) but I have been able to draw on my own inner strength and the support of most of my family and a host of friends, including many on Gransnet.
My best wishes to yourself and your wife and I am so glad we can respect each other's right to believe or not.

Some royal personage some centuries ago is supposed to have commented on Mozart 'too many notes'.

I know what he meant!

Hello Greatnan,
Yes,My faith (which is not exactly orthodox) has helped my wife and myself through many a traumatic time during our 60 years together!
I never try to persuade people to alter their way of thinking. That is why we have free will.
Of course I accept that not every one has the same way of life or belief and i respect your thoughts and reasons for non- belief in a higher power

There are many atheists and non-believers who probably live a more moral life than "Believers!"

If you follow the moral code laid down over thousands of years, you are leading a "good"life. And i respect you

Many aspects of "religion" have caused untold misery, but that is man making up his own rules, for power and gain.

I enjoy reading these comments, but don't like to see the bickering that goes on , which I think is unnececery and demeaning. (now I've put my foot in it!)
Thank you Greatnan, and a happy , long life to you.

I have had some strange experiences which makes me believe there is more to this life than we can imagine. Doesn't make me religious though, I would prefer to watch paint dry than be preached to.

Gramps, you obviously 'feel' your sense of a spiritual presence very strongly and derive great comfort from it, which is good. I wonder if you can try to understand those of us who feel equally strongly that there is no supernatural dimension to our lives? It doesn't make me feel that I am missing anything. I am deeply moved by some music, or a lovely view but I accept that my aesthetic sense is the product of my past experiences and the memories they invoke. Perhaps an appreciation of beauty in all its manifestations has some survival factor to it. I believe cows give more milk if Mozart is played to them, but not pop music. Good judges,cows!

Exactly gramps

Hi Petallus, yes it makes sense!

Personally I believe in the continuation of life after death, but altered in someway! There is nothing to fear, I think we will be met by "friends" in the next world. I know this from my own "personal" experiences - which I shall not discuss on here!

Anyway, it is an unknown factor as far as many folk think. So why worry. It is, or it aint like. Innit?

I have a pretty good life and am not ready for it to end yet, but once is quite enough.

Nonu I am not afraid of death but I am anxious about the process of dying. Long, drawn-out and painful is not an appealing prospect but so often happens.

Oh blast! Posted without editing properly. Hope it makes sense.

gramps I agree. It is very likely there is more to this world than we know off. Lots more probably.

I spent years thinking getting into such as psychology, Buddhism and then, extensively, Christianity.

I don't actively believe there is a God though how can I be sure there isn't? Don't really care one way or the other though if there is one I would prefer it not to be the capricious cruel one mentioned in the Old Testament.

As for an after-life, not bothered about that either. Probably prefer there not to be one, especially if we have to go on through eternity with a human identity.