That man Dawkins

petallus Poor old Job being patient – give him a break. If I had to sit on a dunghill scraping my plague of boils with a potsherd, I should probably wail too.

Oh yes I agree about the church having a stranglehold on the arts in those days. You've only got to walk around the National Gallery to get bored with all those religious themes. Ditto all those upper class portraits, though I do like a good portrait!

I hadn't thought of the old testament as being entirely separate from Christianity. It is often quoted in church services and by Christians in general.

I think the old testament is the most interesting bit to read. I can't help smiling at Job; he's so dramatic, all that wailing and over the top language.

Agree about all the negatives of Christianity although I like to differentiate between Christians and Christianity.

What was it C S Lewis said? Something about why it took him so long to become a Christian was the Christians!

No offence to the Christians on this thread.

petallus Psalms haven't come from Christianity, they are Old Testament.

Kind David and King Solomon led merry, merry lives,
With many, many concubines and many, many wives,
But when old age came over them with many, many qualms,
Solomon wrote the proverbs and King David wrote thr psalms.

Same applies to much of the art produced by Michelangelo. The church paid him so he had to do what it wanted, thus the religious themes.

petallus, I like your list, and indeed the idea of a list of positives. However, I would 'take issue' (in the spirit of discussion) with the idea that christianity actually generated wonderful music. I'm thinking of people like JS Bach and Handel: they produced exceptionally wonderful music for the church, outstandingly beautiful music. However, the church was one of the very few patrons of music at the time, and that's why the music they produced was often for the church. Nowadays, should such composers happen again (if only!), their patrons/sponsors would be far less likely to be associated with a church, and so the music, which would be just as good, would not be called church music and its inspiration would not be ascribed to christianity. People as talented as those two in my example would produce exceptional music for whoever paid them.

That said, at least the church had the funds to pay such talented people, for which we can be thankful. The aristocracy was the other main patron of the arts. So really, cutting to the quick, it depends where the money is

In short, I don't think Bach's most esoteric music was inspired by christianity; I think he was just a genius. His music is often mathematical (e.g Art of Fugue, Goldberg Variations, many cantatas), so ultimately I think the numeric quality of sound is what inspired his amazing brain.

I would say that though, wouldn't I, preferring a scientific explanantion for everything?

Petallus - I don't think anybody has denied that some Christian churches do a lot of good works. However, my principal anger is directed at the rules that cause so much misery and so many deaths - i.e. those against contraception, abortion, divorce and homosexuality. The failure to report sexual abuse or to take any action against abusers did not come as a surprise to me.

Yes absentgrana I'm generalizing wildly.

I used to be very hostile to Christianity but then mellowed after a lot of reading and thinking.

Everyone knows the awful things done in the name of Christianity and how narrow minded and controlling some Christians are. However, whilst lounging in bed this morning with a cup of tea I listed all the good things I could think of which come from the Christian religion:

Lovely churches
Organisations which help the poor and needy
Lovely music and other art
A basic philosophy of life which is based on love and compassion and plenty of advice on how to live a happy and fulfilled life.
Good schools (ha! tongue in cheek on this one)
Providing the idea of safety, protection and comfort in life which some people really do need to get them through.
Interesting ancient writing in The Bible.
Love, the psalms.

I don't see any contradiction in holding these views with being an atheist.

petallus Presumably the cancelling each other out theory applies to believers in other gods too. However, it does presuppose that believers do equal amounts of good and bad.

Oh and why I think that it wouldn't make much difference if God did/did not exist is that sometimes Christians do good in the world, sometimes they do bad. Presumably if there were no Christians the loss of both the good and bad would cancel each other out leaving the world approximately unchanged overall.

The quick answer to why am I splintered from Dawky is that I don't like fundamentalists of any persuasion.

I spent years thinking about the unknown spiritual side of life, studying psychology, Buddhist and Christian philosophy.

There are a lot of intelligent free thinking Christians out there. I particularly like Christian Mysticism (Meister Ekhart) and I've visited places like Turvey Abbey where they run courses in interfaith dialogue and where we are told if we don't believe in a God to 'interpret' that word into something that means something to us as non-believers.

So, against this background I find Dawkins simplistic, aggressive and a smart arse.

He sets up an image of the worst side of Christianity and then proceeds, Aunt Sally like, to knock it down.

And I don't even care if he is friends with a Bishop or two.

Damning with faint ridicule? Dorky is the last thing he is.

Ducky Dawky - like that.

Bit like Ducky

Seemed quite affectionate of her really

PS 'Dawky' was lily's soubriquet for Dawkins (I think)

that's interesting, petallus. Would you like to tell us how?

Gosh, that's interesting petallus. Please tell us more.

Bags I'm certainly 'splintered' from Dawky (as you call him) in my atheism.

I think people are equally good/bad whether or not they believe in a God.

If God exists he doesn't seem to be doing much to help with the suffering in this world.

If he doesn't, well that explains it!

I suppose if you hanker after an afterlife it would be good for there to be a God.

Well said, absent.

Hmm, I don't think there's anything to splinter about in atheism though. Anyone who calls themself (herself/himself?) an atheist has already agreed with all the others who do too about everything that separates them from theists, namely that they don't believe in any gods (so far).

Mind you, Old Sachsie was trying to tell Dawky he's a this kind of atheist rather than a that kind. Silly man. Dawky's far too clever to fall for the divide and rule tactic.

petallus It matters if those who believe there is a god – any god – think this puts them in a position where their belief entitles them to dictate to others who don't believe in the same god or any god how they should behave, live, treat other people and so on. It matters in Eire where the church prevents women from aborting a foetus that for some reason or another – physical deformity or fathered by a rapist (it didn't matter) – meant that they felt unable to bear the child. It matters when a Downs syndrome child has been accused of blasphemy in order to clear a city suburb of Christian inhabitants. It matters if people of faith are allowed a privileged position – bishops automatically given seats in the House of Lords. It matters if it is regarded legally as correct that men have control over women. It matters in many ways these days; it also mattered a lot in the past – think Inquisition and Salem. Is it really any different now – just not always so obviously bloodthirsty.

Lilygran - it wouldn't make any difference to my lack of belief if nobody agreed with me. You either believe or you don't - you can't make yourself believe something just because others believe it.

Petallus - I suppose it makes a difference if you believe it and think there are rules you have to follow. Doesn't make any difference to me.

Presumably there could potentially be as many atheist splinter groups as there are atheists - since there is no body of doctrine. But being human, most of us like to assure ourselves that we are right by finding other people with the same or similar views. Might explain the Dawky following.