Abortion. What it means for Catholics but not the rest of us.

I don't understand why the woman who went to Birmingham isn't condemned to go to hell for eternity when she dies anyway – not just if her plane crashes on her return trip. Is it that she won't have had time to regret her actions and go to confession? What about doctors and pharmacists involved with abortion? Are they also eternally damned?

But he's right that the church should let people got to hell in their own sweet way.

I do not think an article in a newspaper in Ireland can be taken as representing the Catholic church as a whole, any more than African Anglican attitudes to homosexuality can be taken to represent universal Anglican attitudes. Both represent attitudes rooted deep within the culture of the countries who espouse them.

I am of Irish ancestry, brought up a catholic and still, sort of, remain one. What has driven me from the church more than anything else is the still unreconstructed dishonesty of the hierarchy in Ireland. At my best my studies of the history of Ireland give an insight into the very complex relationship between religious beliefs and the very real oppression of the Irish people by the British for 1,000 years. At my worst I think that all the Irish people with any intelligence emigrated, and I am grateful that that includes my ancestors.

In England and in most western countries if a catholic woman had an abortion and went to their parish priest afterwards they would mostly meet understanding and compassion. I have catholic friends who have had abortions and my feelings for them are sympathy and understanding while not liking what they did. All of us have at sometime had a friend or relation who has done something we did not aprove off but for whom we offer understanding and love because we understand what drove them to the action. Sadly this article represents the Irish church only too well but not necessarily attitudes elsewhere in the church.

Woops, should be 'approve of'

What an excellent article.

What bugs me is that the people who rail against abortion on the grounds that "all human life is sacred" are usually quite happy to condone war, or even to encourage it by having regimental banners hung up in their churches and so on.

It's clear that their real reason for being against abortion is not "sanctity of life" but something else - I think we can all guess what!

FlicketyB I'm so relieved to read your post.

It was announced today that the new 'Minister for Women', Maria Miller, is in favour of reducing the age at which abortions can be carried out routinely from 24 weeks to 20 weeks. What do you think?
www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/oct/03/abortion-limit-reduction-maria-miller?newsfeed=true

I agree with her, except in the case where the mother's life is threatened by continuing the pregnancy, or the foetus is found to be non-viable. I know that babies born at 23 weeks have survived, but I do question whether doctors are right to work so hard to save them as most will have very poor health outcomes, but that is another subject.
The answer to late abortions is to give much more information to women about the various services available to them.
Women will have abortions for various reasons. If they cannot get one legally, they will get one illegally and many will die.
What happens, I wonder, when a Catholic women confesses to using contraception - unless she sincerely intends never to use it again, she will not have made 'a firm purpose of amendment' and will not be forgiven. Tricky, but as it appears most Western women, even in countries which are nominally catholic, are not producing children on an annual basis, it is obviously an issue which they have managed to square with their consciences.
Now we just need the supposedly celibate men who run the church to catch up with reality!

I think 20 weeks is a better cut-off limit. After that I feel it becomes murder.

But who has the late abortions? It used to be those who had a diagnosis of Downs Syndrome, in the main.
How many post 20 week abortions are there? Is this a cynical political move maybe?

Probably - I share your cynicism regarding politicians. I will try to find out something about the numbers involved.

www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9581895/Maria-Miller-I-would-vote-to-lower-abortion-limit-from-24-to-20-weeks.html gives between 1 and 2% abortions carried out after 20 weeks, about 3,000 a year.

It is the reason for such late abortions that interests me, Lily. Thanks for the link, I will read it.

There are many reasons where a late abortion is allowed and some of them are in no way life threatening to mother or child. These are the things we need to look at.

Some suggestions from the various sites I looked at - the women did not know they were pregnant, as they had irregular periods or thought they were menopausal; they had always used contraception so did not think they could be pregnant; they were frightened of telling partners/parents; they could not bring themselves to make the decision. More information/education needed, I think.

None of those reasons would, in themselves, justify a late abortion to me I'm afraid.

Nor me, but then I have never been a frightened and rather ignorant teenager!

Greatnan - have another look around. There are some reasons out there such as cleft lip. There are varying degrees of cleft but how is this a reason for an abortion?

A minister of religion (female) who had been born with a cleft lip tried to stop this (abortions because of cleft lip) through the courts but lost her case on the ground that children born with the condition often had other problems. I'll try to find the details; it was a while ago.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joanna_Jepson

Er.....I didn't say I agreed with the reasons given - please don't shoot the messenger!