Who has the right to forgive?

Anyone who wants to has the right to forgive. Punishment is a separate issue. It's conceivable that some people will forgive Anders Breivik but still think he should remain under lock and key for others' safety.

Transcendental numbers are fun but defining spirituality is like shovelling fog.

You're confused? That makes two of us, absent. But my take on it would be that the kind of experience people have been describing is related to the transcendental they deny the existence of.

Lilygran Just as the devil has all the best tunes, it seems that god has cornered all the best vocabulary. I have been struggling with finding the language to discuss secular spirituality and keep coming up with words, such as transcendental, which imply a deity. This is terribly frustrating. Perhaps the very nature of a secular, or indeed religious spiritual experience is that is it inexpressible and ineffable – but then that seems like a cop out.

Whatever it means to the person defining it. For me, it would mean I had stopped wanting to punish somebody.

Precisely what is forgiveness?

I don't claim spirituality of any kind, but if I did it would be up to me to define it, nobody else.

Yes, much more than having a good feeling.

But what does 'secular spirituality' actually mean? Is it anything more than having a good feeling? If it isn't, that's emotion, not spirituality. Car keys - very interesting discussion on radio (TV?) the other day ( can't give the link, sorry) which suggested that saying the thing you are looking for seems to help you focus on where it is. Maybe in that case, that's the power of prayer? Granny23 I really like your description, thank you

Forgiveness can mean letting go of the pain. The forgiver benefits regardless of whether or not the perpetrator accepts the forgiveness.

I do think we are made of 'just' a body and a brain, but we know so little about the way the brain works that some things are still seen as magical, just as the aeroplane was thought to be when it first appeared to tribes in remote places.
Perhaps the brain gives out electrical waves which remain in the ether after we die? Or perhaps you can literally be 'on the same wavelength' as somebody you love. I keep an open mind about what science might discover, but that does not include the possibility of some supreme intelligence who created the universe but still remains so personal that it is worth praying for help to find your missing car keys!

Lilygran - We all have a spiritual component to our being. It may be natural to you to think of any spiritual experience in a religious context, for instance you might thank God for a beautiful sunset or think a male voice choir was singing to his glory. I would experience these with the same surge of emotion but would interpret them differently - the sunset would make me feel at one with nature, the choir would be an example of people coming together to create something which soars above the sum of its parts. It is difficult to offer a logical explanation of spiritual feelings or experiences as they do not come from the logical part of the brain. They relate to the spirit, soul, self, id (call it what you will) and come to the fore during times of grief, joy, despair, love, fellowship and so on. I recall being in an intensely spiritual state for some time after each of my parents died, when I was able to commune wordlessly with my sister, and other relatives - even our cat, usually aloof, snuggled up to me every time I sat down. Flowers seemed more colourful, the moon has never been brighter, everyday happenings were messages from the departed.

I have no religion but do have a strong sense of there being more to us humans than a body and a brain. A simple recent example was during our recent meet-up at Aberdour when Absent was unable to come but said she would be 'there in spirit' which indeed, she was as those of us who know her thought about her on the day and spoke about how we missed her. So, although she was physically absent her spirit was present. I hope this makes sense - it does to me.

Secular spirituality is quite possible lily

I don't define my delight in beautiful views or great music as spiritual - I think it is some physical response, probably with its roots in our evolutionary history. Cows give more milk if Mozart is played to them. A lovely view implies productive land.
I hope nobody will imply that only religious believers have this kind of sensitivity to their environment.
I have been told often - 'once a catholic , always a catholic' which is patent nonsense. These people are not commenting on the church's methods of keeping the ostensible numbers up. (The other annoying comment is that I might get 'lucky' and meet a man!)
I think I can be the best judge of how I feel about both men and religion!

Lilygran Trying to differentiate between spiritual and emotional – and I do think they are different although closely related – defeated me earlier and that's why I said I was going to stop digging. I shall have to give some thought as to how to express how I have a sense of the spiritual although I have no religious belief.

But what does 'spirituality' latch on to unless you believe in the existence of a spirit, or soul? The Wikidefinition Nana quotes above and which I find perfectly acceptable seems to me remarkably like a religious definition.

While most of us are unlikely to be faced with the horror of a murdered sibling and cannot be certain of our reactions following such an event, we can perfectly reasonably look at the concept of forgiveness in that and in other contexts.

I simply chose this section because the woman concerned said it was her new religious belief that made her forgive.

IMO it is not possible to know what one would do in any such circumstances unless one has shared that exact experience and even then it would be very difficult. My sister and I shared some bad experiences but reacted in very different ways which affected the rest of our lives.

Walk a mile in someone's shoes ...............

I think it would be futile for me to speculate how I would cope in someone else's situation unless I had had the same experience.

There's is no way I can forgive someone who has hurt my DD very badly. To hurt her as she has been hurt suggests that this person knew what they were doing. If she can eventually forgive then that is up to her but I can't see myself ever forgiving this person.

If someone is truly sorry and means it that is a different scenario to consider. If they say they are truly sorry - then repeat the action, it means zilch.

That's right absent he has many famous quotes to his name. A wise man.

I like the quote too grannyk it sort of takes god out of the equation if you'd prefer.

I like that wiki definition. Recently I saw an interview with Jane Goodall and they asked her about her religious views, and she said something along the lines of you can't spend a lifetime in nature and not realise there is a spiritual dimension to life. And not long after I heard Attenborough say almost exactly the same thing in an interview. nan maybe that's why there's a saying "I'll forgive, but I'll never forget" because I do think you can seperate the two things out. One is about letting it go and the other is about acknowledging the effect it has had.

Nanadog
"To err is human, to forgive, divine". It's Alexander Pope.

"Spirituality exists wherever we struggle with the issues of how our lives fit into the greater scheme of things. This is true when our questions never give way to specific answers or give rise to specific practices such as prayer or meditation. We encounter spiritual issues every time we wonder where the universe comes from, why we are here, or what happens when we die. We also become spiritual when we become moved by values such as beauty, love, or creativity that seem to reveal a meaning or power beyond our visible world. An idea or practice is "spiritual" when it reveals our personal desire to establish a felt-relationship with the deepest meanings or powers governing life."

Took this from Wikipedia

'To err is human, to forgive is divine ' isn't that from the bible? Luke?

Lilygran Is it not simply those concerns that are not material or physical?

Calling this forum religion and spirituality is tautological as religion automatically falls into the category of spirituality, but not all matters spiritual are automatically religious.

I have a close friend who is a practising Catholic with a powerful personal relationship with his god. Although a hugely clever man, he finds it hard to understand how, as an atheist, I can have any spiritual concerns and tends to confuse them with emotional concerns. (They are not the same thing but I can see that I am digging a hole and am going to stop now.)

What, exactly, is 'spirituality'? And what has it to do with forgiveness? Not trying to be difficult, I really want to know.