Why we don't have a bible in the house, nor would...

Lilygran Isn't the consensus among scholars that the books of the Bible were written between 1000BC and AD100-ish? Of course, not all Bibles contain the same books.

The prohibition on killing is very variable in Western society too. Look at the concept of a just war, not to mention the continuing existence of the death penalty in the US. (The death penalty for murder wasn't abolished in Great Britain until the 1960s and not completely abolished until 1998 so we're in no position to sneer.)

That is judicial killing though - I don't think any society allows individuals to kill others outside of the law.

Greatnan I don't think the Ten Commandments says anything along the lines of "Thou shalt not kill except when someone is convicted of murder, espionage, terrorism et al after a trial, the terms of which may be decided arbitrarily by the government and which may be held in secret."

Yes, lily. I agree there is a difference between respect and honour. Some peoplle think their kind of 'honour' is so important, that they're prepared to kill for it. Some of them are even prepared to kill their own children. I don't think I like that kind of honour. I know my children honour and respect me because I taught them how to do it by honouring and respecting them. We honour and respect each others' differences.

The only 'armament' in the books of people like Sam Harris (and your favourite other atheist, That Man Dawkins), is rational argument. Very civilised when one thinks about it. I seem to remember that there was quite a lot of irrational stuff in the bible books – another reason I don't hold them in high regard. Why would I wish to re-read a set of stories that I don't even like? I wouldn't do that with any other storybook. I don't think anyone would if it were not called a holy book.

Very true, absent - didn't both sides in the two world wars have their artillery blessed?

I remember - as a naive student - being very shocked when I saw this in the film 'If'................

Bags I think you have evaded the point I made which was that Harris and every other person published today is at the end of a long line of everything else that was ever written or thought. There is nothing new under the sun. The 'armed' reference was to the Greek goddess Athena who was said to have been born from the head of her father, Zeus (sprang fully formed and armed, with a mighty shout). Goddess of, among other things, philosophy and war. There's an interesting combination.

Love Gransnet - I'm learning so much. Just looked up honour in the dictionary and I definitely fail on the honouring mother commandment. (Respect went out the window 45 years ago.) But I still find myself running around in circles trying to make her happy, is that love or instinct?

Or even – dare I say it – guilt, NFK?

Nfk - your mother was probably your primary carer, and it is inbuilt to want to stay close to them as a child. Many people spend their lives trying to please indifferent parents who don't deserve their love and loyalty. Some mothers are adept at emotional blackmail (the stereotype is the Jewish mother, source of many jokes).

Nfk - the full commandment is (or something like) 'Honour your father and mother that your days may be long on the land that God gives you'. It's all about the value of the family to the community and keeping a hold of the promised land that they were going to after they left slavery in Egypt. So unless you have some ancestral land that you want to hang on to, don't worry about that commandment too much.

Oh, Absent I was born feeling guilty! And Greatnan I come from a line of Quakers and Baptists on the female side, but I'm beginning to suspect a Jewish influence there somewhere!

And I thought only Catholicism inculcated guilt!

I didn't evade that point, lily. I missed it entirely!

By which I mean it went right over my head.

That's quite worrying, Bags if your robust ripostes are aimed at something you can't understand. Like faith, maybe.

Do you understand faith?

Do you understand doubt?

Do you understand lack of faith?

Do you understand the complete lack of a need for faith?

Yes, I think I do. And you are still avoiding the issue.

I am not ashamed of not getting your reference, but I am a bit ashamed of your rubbing that in in such a patronising way.

Please remind me what the issue is? You seem to be sneering at Sam Harris. Your post just before that is not clear enough for me to understand without further explanation as to what you actually mean. I can guess, but I can't be sure.

So, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to have evaded.

Please explain so that even I can understand.

Sam Harris claims that there is nothing worth knowing that can't be found somewhere else than in the Bible. The Bible has some weird stuff in it, I have to admit, but it also has material which has had such an influence on any literature of any kind that came after that it is nonsense to claim it is of no relevance to today. You say you studied philosophy. You can see the trail of people building on, developing from or reacting against the ideas that came before. Isn't that true? And might you not want to track those ideas to their source? I didn't mean to be patronising, I'm sorry if you felt I was. I'm used to arguing discussing things with people who I know will catch my allusions and references.