Christian Grans

'Secular' implies a level playing field, with no religious privilege.

I would like, by the way, to see the religious oath in courts abolished, in favour of the affirmation that I elect to use. That way, my affirming is not going to prejudice religious members of the jury, or the bench, against me.

Bags Lewis Carroll was a conservative sort of man in many ways. He was also a mathematician and logician. He was interested in psychic research and wrote, i think but don't quote me, some philosophical stuff too.

C S Lewis also wrote some good stories, but that was different.

Bags, you have just set me off on a very interesting bit of research on Lewis Carroll (Charles Dodgson). He was a remarkable man. He was a deacon of Christ Church College so he had to accept the 39 articles of the Anglican church, but he was interested in many philosphies and also electoral reform. There has always been some prurient interest in his relationship with Alice Liddell, but her parents obviously thought it was purely innocent.

Oh no! Big mistake! I was confusing Lewis Carroll with C S Lewis. [apology emoticon] CSL was a christian. Haven't a clue about Carroll.

The rest stands.

I lost the plot long ago. In fact I didn't know there was a plot. I was just going with the flow. Thank you for your clear and true words, mishap, as always.

Mishap Thanks for making good sense of my befuddled mind. I also feared that I was losing the plot.

Elsiejoy - I am very surprised that the people who sent you messages of support 'felt as Christians they ought to stay silent.' Isn't that exactly what Christians are not supposed to do?
I can't say I have received any messages of support because all the people who agree with me and understand that my opposition is only to organised religion, not individuals, feel able to post their agreement on the open forum.

I'm afraid I'm going to be controversial again. I think, upon investigation, it will be found that 'secular' does not mean 'non-christian' when used by christians, as a rule. That does not, of course, cover everyone's use of the word. It could even be that people of other faiths use 'secular' to mean non-christian too, but that is news to me. Thank you for the information, elsie-joy. It does clear up something in your original post that I was puzzled about. One of the first lessons I had in philosophy at university was about defining the words one was using. It has been shown on this thread how important this is for preventing misunderstandings.

I will, however, stick with the dictionary definitions for my own use. Just wanted to make that clear. I might refer to a christian as secular, you see, and I won't be insulting them if I do.

Soop has said what I too have said several times. Having different points of view does not imply personal attack.

I have really lost the plot here - I cannot see that anyone of any belief on this trhread has said anything offensive - just expressing different views.

If the atheists and agnostics on this thread express concerns about what is and has been done in the name of religion, then they are only expressing views that my christian friends share.

Why is this seen as a threat?

Have you read this whole thread, soop? A number of posters, both religious and not have said they felt some of these posts seemed to be hostile. I said earlier that some people are put off posting by a negative response. I don't think they are all over- sensitive. We aren't all brussen as my granny would have said.

I have no idea how many Christians are members of this forum, but on this thread at least three people have said that they are Christians. Happily there have been four who have taken a much more conciliatory tone than some. And then there are the others contributers who take a very different position. The three who chose to 'support' Elsie Joy did so openly. I wouldn't call acknowledging one's Christianilty 'supporting' someone. Perhaps there are only three of us. I don't know. Perhaps others who do not have the benefit of 'a sharp intellect' prefer not to get involved or perhaps they feel that this sort of exchange is unhelpful to harmony.

I have started another thread and would welcome responses which seek as the title says to 'Find a way forward'.

From Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll (who was a christian, I believe):

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'

ElsieJoy How can you say that the Religion and Spirituality forum is all anti religion and spirituality. As an atheist, it saddens me to read that you've discovered that christians were not welcomed at all. Of course christians are welcome. The majority of my friends are God-fearing/loving christians. We've accepted each other's beliefs and, thankfully, as good and loyal friends, we will continue to do so without fear or rancour.

ElsieJoy Welcome to the forum and do continue to post your opinions.

I am sorry, but I still believe that to the majority of people "secular" means to do with that side of life which has no connection to religion - as in "rendering unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's", not "not Christian" as in not believing in Christ.

Church management committees discuss a lot of secular things alongside religious ones - like what colour to paint the toilets in the church hall and whether to buy a new fridge or make do with the old one, or whether apple pie is a better choice of dessert for a social event than tiramisu. These questions have to be addressed by people of any faith or none, those discussing them are not "unchristian". Professionals who come to paint the said toilets or mend the fridge are there in a secular capacity, but may or may not be Christian themselves.

And if you see it as Christians not being welcomed at all on the forum, then I think you are being ultra-sensitive. It is rather that they are no more and no less welcome than non-christians. If you are looking for active discrimination for those with religious beliefs then you will be disappointed - those with and those without are equal. That is how it should be.

What a pity your fellow Christians did not feel able to support you openly.
Surely the place to find other Christians would be on one of the Christian forums? This forum is for grandparents of all faiths and none.
Did you not expect that some of us would not be Christians, and would not be afraid to say so?

Thank you lilygran My original post was not meant to be provocative...just an observation...as you said I am new here and that was my first post. Joined Gransnet for the specific reason of finding fellow christian grans...how am I to meet fellow christians if I don't 'nail my colours to the mast'? But reading through the posts on the 'Religion and Spirituality' forum...which is a great misnomer if ever there was one as it is all anti religion and spirituality...I was sad to discover that christians were not welcomed at all. Though thank you to all those who have PM'd me with support but felt as christians they had to stay silent.

The word 'secular' when used by a christian means...'non christian'

absent, . Actually a throaty chuckle.

I suppose theist would do, would it?

I agree with anno. I don't actually think anyone has been aggressive about theism or about atheism. But if I'm going to be called aggressive I need to find an acceptable meaning for that word — acceptable to me, I mean — a meaning which I can glory in. so I'm happy, as I said, with being energetic and wotnot. [wishes had more energy though, emoticon]

feetlebaum, thank you for your remarks. They give me strength.

Would religio do?

I was going to ask about that, elf — about my use of the term religiacs. I use it because it's shorter than 'religious people'. I'm looking for a term that is the equivalent of atheist, but meaning religious person. Some people use "faithheads" but I thought that wouldn't be popular, so I used religiac instead, for brevity and ease of typing. No other reason. Happy to use a different abbreviation. Suggestions?

early, not easily.

I have been out since quite easily this morning and have just read through all the intervening posts to catch up. There's just one thing missing – a patronising post that tells us all to be sensitive to those who are easily intimidated, even frightened by bullying atheists* and to be nice to each other. [pink teddy bear emoticon]

* In fact, strong-minded posters on any subject. It just so happens that this thread is on the subject of Christianity, so atheists would be designated the bullies.

I would love somebody to quote any posts where atheists have misrepresented Christianity. Vague allegations are not acceptable to me.
And clearly my oft-repeated explanation of exactly what it is about some religions that makes me hostile have not been understood, or I would not need to keep repeating them. I think I am the one banging my head against a brick wall!
My atheism has nothing whatsoever to do with my politics, so that is one red herring we can put in the bin
right away.
I am at a loss as to what the Christians expect of atheists. Should we pretend to believe in a god? Are we not entitled to express our non belief and our reasons for it without being vilified as militant and aggressive? For positively the last time -you can all believe what you like and I would defend your right to express your belief in any way you please - but I cannot refrain from criticising certain practices that cause untold pain and distress all over the world. Now, will you defend my right to hold my own views and express them?