Does anyone like or support face-covering (hijab or burka)??

NannaAnna I enjoyed reading your excellent post. I agree with what you say.

I've lived and worked in several Arabic countries including Saudi Arabia, teaching English. I met some lovely (and some not so lovely) Muslim men and women
There are many parallels in this thread.
One person that sticks in my mind though was Mn'aar, a beautiful unmarried, well educated Saudi woman, hoping to be a doctor. The women in my class arrived veiled, but once inside the classroom, with no men around, were relaxed and took off their veils.
However Mn'aar always held her hand or veil in front of her mouth when she spoke. The other ladies in the class held her in high esteem because of this and I wondered why. I asked her about this, privately, and she told me that even the sound of her voice was deemed to be suggestive.

That's what the test told me Ana but it seems it told everyone who did it the same thing (almost). Not sure my views on this particular subject support the results

I agree with your last post, nightowl, although I'm not at all sure that I'm a left libertarian...

NannaAnna, thank you.

Nightowl - many of these young women would not agree that they are 'caught' between 2 cultures- they cope admirably and positively very well.

granjura I agree it is important to consider the plight of western born Muslim girls who may be caught between two cultures. It's a shame that western girls who dress and behave as they do and Muslim girls can't come together more to reassess their respective positions in society. I'm sure each group could learn a lot from the other.

I read your post with interest NannaAnna and I found it very informative and informed.

JessM, perhaps being a touch pedantic here, but, you say:
"^So does your outrage extend to less concealing forms of Muslim clothing? Men wearing turbans? Women in saris?^"
These are not Muslim modes of dress. Turbans are worn by Sikhs, and saris are worn by Indian women who are by and large Hindi. Pakistani women, by and large Muslim, wear the salwar kameez.
Someone else mentioned having to cover your face if living in Saudi Arabia. This is most definitely not the case. You are expected to dress respectfully, but this only extends to covering arms, legs and head, and keeping clothing loose to conceal your shape. Some expats will chose to wear the abaya, but I've never met one who donned a burka, or even wore hijab.
Interestingly, in my experience, a lot of Saudi women object to non-Muslim women donning an abaya when in public (a burka would be ridiculed!) They see it as representing their Islamic faith (even though it is cultural not religious) and resent non-Muslims 'mimicking' their beliefs. They are more than happy to see non-Muslims in 'Western' dress, so long as it is modest. The muttawah (religious police) might take a different stance, but moves to restrict their influence is coming from the Sheik at the moment.
I would like to add that, having lived in Saudi Arabia - and with 3 young daughters - you actually want to cover up because men openly undress you with their eyes, no matter how covered up you are. This is very disturbing when you see it being directed at your very pretty, petite, blond 10 year old daughter, as well as your teenagers and you! Even when I returned to the UK it took me some time to re-adjust and stop feeling very self-conscious about my female body, and to stop 'covering up'. It really is something you have to experience to understand. I didn't feel it in Dubai, but I'm sure I would have in Afghanistan or Pakistan.
What comes first? Men demanding that women cover up because they are temptresses, or a society deciding that women should cover because of the lasciviousness of men? Why do some societies see the human form in this way while others accept semi-nudity as the norm and don't have the same levels of sexual tension? (Thinking traditional African tribal life as one example).
Within Islamic societies there are wide variances on 'modest' dress. I have a Malaysian Muslim friend who lives in Dubai, and she wears far more revealing clothes than I would ever wear, and never covers her hair. She considers herself to be a good Muslim. Lebanese Muslim women often go out looking like Donatella Versace!
I have lived in Dubai for 2 spells over the past 15 years, and the Emiratis are extremely tolerant, wanting to attract Westerners, and willing to embrace the differences amongst their multi-national/multi-ethnic/multi-faith population. They do not want their expat population to cover up, stop drinking alcohol and convert to Islam. But things are bubbling under the surface right now, and this gets to the crux of my stand on the OP's post. Wherever you live in the World, surely it goes without saying that you respect the culture and beliefs of your host nation? Surely it also goes without saying that you hope they will respect your culture and beliefs? In Dubai, far too many expats do not accept the cultural, religious and social norms of the UAE. Too many women dress in a way that they wouldn't dream of at home! They see themselves as being 'on holiday' even when they live there, and dress as if they are on the beach all the time. Would they do this at home? We might see the occasional woman queueing in the bank or boarding a bus in 'Daisy Duke' shorts and a strappy vest with boobs hanging out of a too-small bra, but even here we'd probably raise an eyebrow. We would certainly look agog at a women wandering through a shopping mall with a T-shirt and nothing else flung over a still-wet bikini, straight from the beach! (I must add that men in short shorts and bare chests is just as unacceptable to the Emiratis and almost as common a sight). Why chose to do this in a Muslim country?? Is choosing to wear a burka in multi-faith, multi-ethnic Britain more or less disrespectful of the local culture?? In Dubai, this one-sided attitude is creating a back-lash which could rein in the liberal attitude currently in place. Tolerance is two-way street.
I am proud to live in one of the most open-minded and tolerant societies in the world. It is what makes up for the lousy climate!! I am proud that we do not place restrictions on what our citizens believe or what they wear. I do not like to see women in burkas or niqab because to me it does speak of repression. I'm not that keen on hijab, because I see nothing wrong with showing one's hair. I know that these modes of dress have nothing to do with Islam. Islam simply requires women and men to dress modestly. These restrictions are cultural, and radical. I hope that over time, education and assimilation will bring about change, and restrictive dress codes will fade away. I nevertheless accept their right to dress as they chose, and accept their views as being as valid as my own. I would not want to live in a country that forbade anyone to wear certain items that distinguish them in any way. I would not feel comfortable living in France, although I understand and acknowledge the origins of their secular stance.
What is of some concern, as others have mentioned, is the choice made by young, British-born Muslim women to cover up by choice. They are making a statement, and that statement is that Britain does not respect people of the Muslim faith, and I am damn well going to make you sit up, recognise and respect me, because I am proud of my faith and my heritage. Good for them! If they need to do that, it says as much about us as it does them. If pockets (large pockets?) of our secular society have problems with one of the world's 3 major faiths, then we need a wake-up call. If the majority of Muslim women in Britain started to wear the burka, then we would have a problem, I think. It would be a clear indication that they felt unaccepted in our society and had no respect for it either. The give and take would have taken off and gone.
So, it comes back to tolerance and respect. On both sides. When it exists, such issues are no issue. Go with the flow, man. Live and let live. Embrace our differences and love each other regardless. It's what makes humanity so darn fascinating

baNANA and nightowl- I totally agree with you both. Just wanted to try and 'balance' the argument, and give the other point of view as given to me by many of my female 6th Form Asian students.

I am, like it seems all of us a left libertarian. However I cannot in this case accept the 'live and let live' attitude because in the majority of the Islamic world, outside the pampered west, adopting the veil is not a free choice but an unavoidable tyranny. I believe that the women who freely adopt it here are adopting a symbol of oppression and doing a grave disservice to women fighting for the most basic of rights elsewhere.

Going back a bit: when I was in Saudi I did not have to wear a burka nor a headscarf but I did have to have long sleeves and below the knee skirts. Also I had to sit in the back of the car and of course not drive and neither was I allowed to go swimming. I saw the religious police but was never stopped by them thankfully.

I was in a carpark one time [in this country] and saw a mum with a child obviously waiting for someone. It was hot and sunny and she was wearing a very pretty burka equivalent although her face was unveiled - and I could see right through it, just like the Princess Diana photo!!!!! All that effort and I could see her knickers quite clearly.

Talking of blind people. When my children were small I attended a playgroup and got friendly with a blind mum and she ran her hands over my face and over my children's faces so she could 'see' them. I was quite moved by that.

I agree, not all girls bow to the pressure to follow the example of 'celebrities' baring their all in order to get noticed. Hopefully fashions will change soon.

JessM agree with you, hate the way some people think it's smart to dress their little girls up in inappropriate clothes, frankly it's horrible. Granjura I too feel sorry for young girls who feel they've got to show everything, a bit of mystique wouldn't go amiss. Your 6th former is right to feel that way, many of us would agree with him, but there has to be a middle ground between letting it all hanging out and climbing under a burka, neither is ideal.

About to logout but a question occurred to me: Apart from the temporary, sandstorm coverings of desert peoples, is this drastic face and body covering (especially the face part) a part of any modern culture other than islamic ones?

I know there are lots of diverse clothing cultures/fashions throughout the world, as one would expect, but so far I haven't heard of another human face-covering culture except for the purpose of protection from the elements.

Arctic peoples wrapped fur closely round their faces for protection – the fur helped to trap their own warm body heat close to their faces – but I'm not aware that they ever hid their eyes.

Does anyone know of any other modern cultures where women have to cover themselves completely even when 'the elements' don't require it? Or any other culture where women choose to cover themselves so completely? I'm assuming on the evidence available to me that it's only women who are affected by this custom, but am ready to be properly informed otherwise if someone can.

Edit : Indian female students

Exactly what my 6th Form Indian told me when we discussed this. They feel truly sorry for the English girls they know, who are expected to dress showing everything they've got, breasts, bellies and thongs- expected to have sex and give blow-jobs to the boys, and who get drunk to the point of falling in the gutter or worse. Wearing clothes that cover them (and most of them would not wear the burka however)- is to protect them from predatory boys and men, and to avoid being seen and treated like pieces of meat. Sadly.

Hi Johanna, I agree that the abuse at Haut de la Garenne is awful as indeed the abuse of any young child is. I think what I was trying to say regarding the wearing of head scarves on very young girls, and possibly I'm putting my own interpretation on it remembering my early experiences growing up a Catholic and having to cover my head. It seems to me that what conservative male dominated religions are trying to impart to their young female members is that it's never too early for you to be considered a temptress and therefore it's best you cover your hair up as soon as possible and become meek and submissive. I think it can possibly impart to the child, albeit subliminally, that the onus is on her not to lead men on. I don't like it! I remember the book you referred to Not Without My Daughter, was there also a film of it? I read an early Hilary Mantel book, called something like 8 months in Ghazza Street about an ex pat British woman who accompanied her husband to Saudi Arabia when he was posted there and if I remember rightly, it was a while back, she came to the conclusion after a while it was easier to wear a burka as you were viewed as a prostitute without one.

I think really that the problem here is that throughout history in all countries people have been persecuted and stigmatized for their faith or the clothes they wear or the life they lead.This has in some cases lead to tragic results. Now that we have all taken the test and find that most of us are diehard libertarians perhaps we should take a leaf out of our own books and allow people the right to choose, provided they harm no-one in doing so.

I can understand why muslim women and the parents of muslim girls might be horrified by the way young white women dress and behave. Maybe it they did not insist on their right to dress like whores (and quite often, dressing 6 year old girls like whores), then the Muslim community would be a bit less keen to cover up.

Been reading all the posts, and been thinking about how to reply. But it is a hugely complex issue. The thread makes me uncomfortable, because although I agree with much being said - I am concerned about the sentiments and values I sense behind many of the comments.

I dont mind headscarfs but face coverings in our Western society are not right. particularly for those working with children. Not showing your face is almost threatening in our society.
There was a to do about a classroom assistant in the UK some time ago who was asked not to wear a veil while in her classroom with very young children.

There have to be compromises to local culture in both directions in things like this. I have covered my bare shoulders in churches in italy and Greece out of respect for local custom.

baNANA, very much enjoyed your post.
There is one thing you mention which I don't agree with :" I don't like to see little girls wearing head scarves. Why for heaven's sake? "

I can sort of understand where they coming from with that.
After all the Child Abuse at Haut de la Garenne involved 5 year olds....

Anyhow. we should all read or re read : Not Without My Daughter. A book, true story written by Betty Mahmoody.
I can highly recommend it. First published in 1991 I think.
It was an eye opener, and I think it still stands. Very educational, but reads like a thriller.

gracesmum I like the 10 paces behind line.

Crossed posts, g23. I was replying to gracesmum's comment. In reply to yours, yes, I do think rules about dress/garb are fundamentally about control.

A droll reply, which may have some relevance to reality nowadays in some places, but that isn't the real reason for it.