Faith or indoctrination?

I feel that all believers have been indoctrinated to some degree.

Indoctrinating children is unforgivable, but it is done everywhere and always was. The fear of hell fire for ever and ever is particularly disgusting when fed to little children. The whole afterlife thing is a way of ensuring the poor and powerless accept unjust the status quo, in the hope of a reward in heaven.

Once you realise it is all made up, some religions made up by ancient peoples who obviously had no scientific knowledge; other more modern religions like Scientology or Mormonism, by shameless but charismatic men on a sure pathway to power.

I love the freedom and logic of atheism.

More of those left than the soft toy, Jingle. Fortunately a day's tablets for me will not fit in it!

Oh Bags! Thanks for that link. I've got to buy this from it

ANA
Big

You can't win, Ana!

I live in a village that has three churches and two church schools. It certainly looks competitive to me. Some of the Christians I know believe in an eye for an eye, and I cannot get them to see that it is incompatible with Christianity.

IMO, of course...

Thank you, mcem, you have expressed my view entirely!

Mishap - "It is like joining a cricket team and only adhering to those rules that you like."

No it isn't, at all. Faith/religion is not a competetive game.

Ana and Mishap - without adding to the controversy, I'd suggest that many Christians would say that the teachings of Christ more or less relegated the old testament to history - eg ' love thy neighbour' takes precedence over 'an eye for an eye'. Jesus also taught that fussing over the Leviticus orders about unclean food was a waste of time. I'm the first to say that this is a very simplistic explanation but I think it has relevance.I do agree you've made some very valid points.

It is a huge puzzle to those of us not a religious bent that one should join a religion and pick and choose what to believe.

In church, after the lessons (new and old testament) the congregation responds with something along the lines of this is the word of the lord. Is it or isn't it? Or do people mumble the phrase when the lesson happens to have been unacceptable to them? I know people who only say some bits of the creed because they cannot in all honesty stand there and say they believe in something they do not.

It is like joining a cricket team and only adhering to those rules that you like.

It is all open to interpretation by people thousands of years after it was all written down, and each generation will interpret it in their own way, deciding what is fact and what is myth.

The central puzzle is of course, what is it all for? How does it all make the world a better place?

I think I will pass on the cuddly doll!

I love it that the Jesus doll looks like a Viking

I don't understand why some people are so bothered by the idea that one can practise a religion without necessarily believing everything they're told. Are all Christians supposed to be creationists and fully committed to the 'eye for an eye' principle?

The 'cuddly' 'Jesus' is, I think a Victorian invention.

Those who defend the cherry-picking approach - from whom do you derive the authority to make those choices? Is it any wonder that so many of us profess no respect for religion? Note I didn't say 'no respect for the religious'.

£19.99!

Mishap, was trying to find the words- but you said it so much better. Exactly how I feel.

Jesus soft toy

And of course, as a baby/child he probably was cuddly.

I was using the term cuddly sarcastically. Should have explained better. Jesus is portrayed a 'sweet' in pictures quite often.

I think that provides an ending to the whole thread!

If it is not choice, then what is it? Indoctrination?

If you really want a cuddly Jesus, I'm sure you'll be able to get one at www.ship-of-fools.com/gadgets/witnessing/index.html. Also interesting discussions about many of the topics raised here. Mishap it's often not a matter of choice. That's not how faith works for most of us.

So many of my friends are christian (indeed vicars!) and they all "cherry pick", believing the message about loving one another (and who could argue with that?) and rejecting those bits that they do not agree with (including most of the old testament). To be honest they are mostly (even the vicars) skating pretty close to being humanist in their beliefs.

Central to the christian faith are doctrines that make me squirm: original sin, being "saved", sacrifice, barbarity (crucifixion); and on top of that (though not central to most) is all the raft of imposed ideas about the inferiority of women, the "sin" of homosexuality etc.

If it is possible to lead one's life loving one's neighbour, spreading all the happiness one can without these pernicious beliefs, why not simply do so?

Can you buy soft toy Jesus s? There could be a market.