What secularism is

So, if Christianity, or any other preferred religion, will not be ended by the existence of a truly secular state in which the laws protect people's right to follow whichever faith they like, or none, what's the problem with secularism?

In answer to an earlier question from lily, I'm not sure there is a truly secular state anywhere in the world as yet, but France is making a pretty good effort to be so. The US constitution is all for it in principle too ( and look how many religious nutters there are over there! Religion certainly hasn't been stamped out, nor should it be).

All of its citizens, whatever their religious persuasions. Without even considering or knowing their religious persuasions or trying to influence them.

should not chould

It wouldnt die out, no.

A state chould try to look after its citizens.

People cannot be made to be christians overnight. Christianity does not work that way.

As Elegran says, people's beliefs have often had more to do with politics than anything else.

I think that there is a strong possibility that religion might be stronger in a secular state, as those who believe in whatever faith will have a stronger motivation to make sure that their voice is heard. A secular state does not stop them doing just that.

I do not think that anyone with a faith should worry about it dying out in a secular state - their religion would be a pretty poor thing if it could be knocked off course by separating the state from religion.

soontobe Glad I can make you smile. The home atmosphere and example has most influence on belief - or against belief if it has been forced too hard upon them. It is a domestic matter, not a state one. Of course it is not easy to bring up children to follow tamely in your footsteps - any footsteps. That is how it should be, with them using their own judgment.

Once upon a time, whole nations were converted because their rulers had seen the light (or the trading advantages of conversion) One day they were all pagans, the next all Christians. Or one day all Catholic, the next all Protestant. Faith is no longer a matter of a national diktat (Catholics are no longer excluded from the army, or from public office) so it should no longer be a national church.

God is very useful.

It must be very hard to be non-religious - having to strive to do the right thing without a God figure there in the background, whose approbation you seek. A bit like sailing a sea without a chart.

In many homes, it will not be taught.
And then why would future generations introduce their children to religious leaders and buildings, other than in a say architectural way.

An interesting position soon - even my vicar friends acknowledge that the existence of god is a matter of belief.

People should be given the chance to knowledge.
And not just at the end of time, when all will know.

1. God exists therefore
2. God and christians want all people to know about it.

I cant see how anyone could grow up completey unprejudiced in a family. Even being brought up in an institution in any country will have prejudices.

Christianity is and would be taught, and the different denominations of Christianity described, the tenets of other religionsas are taught and would be taught, how they all began, the history of their development and the stories of their heroes and heroines. What would not be taught in state schools is that one particular faith is the only way to avoid eternal damnation, and that to have no faith at all is to be on the primrose path to the everlasting bonfire.

The same with public life in all its forms. There would be nothing to stop you joining any religious group you liked, and carrying out its observances, and bringing up your children in that faith. But there would be no official link between the state and any one denomination. That is the definition of secularism.

The existence or not of god is not the issue. What is under discussion is whether any one particular religion's path to their deity should be institutionalised in an educational and governmental system. Secularists believe that it should not be and I support that view.

Elegran, your post made me smile.
There are not that many young christians who have solely become christians through their religious guides and pastors.
Oh, if it were only that easy!

I do not think that secularism precludes the teaching of religion in schools alongside all the other subjects that help a child to understand how the world works and how the people in that world think, feel and behave. It would be a huge oversight in a child's cultural education if they did not know about world religions - this study would come into geography, history, philosophy, art, music, drama etc.

Secularism would stop schools, governments and other institutions that citizens cannot easily opt out of from having a religious bias. That does not mean that children would not learn the important role of religions in shaping societies. They would just have greater freedom to choose their own path. They might wish to follow their parents' religion or they might take a different route altogether. But hopefully they will have had the chance to grow up without prejudice or guilt.

Surely that is the parents' problem, soontobe

No, it becomes the childrens'.

Elegran. I dont think many christians will say that the state must teach in a way that christianity is taught in preference to other religions.

Parents can show an example of how to live their lives ethically, and attribute their ethics to the doctrine that they have been taught by their theological leaders. They do not necessarily have to teach the details of their religion unless they want to, that is for their religious guides and pastors.

Schools can give general ethical guidance without making it religious. Ethics are universal, there is no need for one section of the community to take possession of them.

durhamjen I think a lot of people confuse secularism with a desire to abolish religion.

Lilygran I agree that the situation in the House of Lords is a "right mess" but I believe that the automatic inclusion of Church of England representatives is part of that mess.

I don't know that much about how the House of Lords is constituted but I wasn't aware that anyone is "elected" in the normal understanding of the word.

Surely that is the parents' problem, soontobe? If, say, Muslim parents don't know enough to teach their children about the muslim faith, perhaps they don't actually think it matters all that much? Otherwise, presumably, they'd make an effort to find out?

In any case, don't all religions have priests or their equivalent to do such teaching?

Trouble is that God exists!" Nowhere has God stated that those who follow one particular form of worshipping him must have precedence over all others in forming and administering laws on non-religious matters.

In fact, one of His manifestations is quoted as saying "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's" - so Thatbag's father was not the first secularist, by many years.

I don't think, lily, that the "nibbling round the edges" that you mention (could you be more specific, please? I'm not entirely sure I know what you mean) is the cause of the generous expenses that you also mention. There is clearly a fault somewhere in the organisation of paying expenses to people in our parliament (both houses), but the idea that this is the fault of secularism is new to me. I had always thought it was the fault of bad rules about paying expenses, rules with too many loopholes that MPs and Lords can use to get hold of more taxpayers' money.

In short, I don't see the connection between secularism and government individuals' expenses.

I do see a connection between however many unelected bishops there are in the House of Lords and proper democracy.

If secularism isn't the answer to greater fairness in democracy, to the establishment of laws which do not affect any person, whatever their faith or lack thereof, differently from any other person, what is?

Parents may be free to teach, but if they dont know much themselves, the sum total of their teaching may be miniscule.