Global growth of religions

Actually, the Catholic and Protestant Chruches here do provide social services of one kind or another to all- whether they paa the tax or not- by personally, I think it is wrong and unfair to expect them to do so. Why should a few people have to pay for the others who could easily pay but choose not to do so? Those few also have to organise loads and loads of fund-raising actitivities to supplement the sort-fall- it takes all their time and energy. They do try, and at time fail (and I don't blame them) not to judge or to resent- those who avail themselves of the services but refuse to contribute, be that in taxes or in time and effort- but it must be hard, really. When the number of staff is constantly cut, where parishes are joined and vicarages and other accomodation are sold to provide funds, and the hours and time spent is forever increased for those left, etc.

We are not Church goers, and do not pay our taxes- and yet help be making our premises available for free and lots of our time, preparing food and serving it, cleaning up afterwards, paying the electricity bills, and taxes on the premises, etc, organising trips and activities- whereas other Church goers do nothing! We don't mind at all- but at the same time have to wonder- is that fair?

How would you feel if some members of the Golf Club didn't pay their membership fees? In our case, we helpt run the club but don't even pay! Talk of the irony.

CofE churches used to receive tithes - 10% of your income. Where the church incumbent was titled Rector, the incumbent received the tithes, while where the incumbent was a Vicar the tithes passed elsewhere...

I feel that the NHS shold not have to bear the cost of hospital chaplaincy, that the church as representative of 'the employer' should pay them. The last bill I saw ran over 40 million - you could get a fair few nurses or other useful people for that!

In many C of S parishes there is no fee as such for a wedding service. A fee to the organist, gratuity to church officer. Same applies for baptisms and funerals but services are not conditional on these payments.
So it does mean that church members who make regular contributions do 'subsidise' non-members who could feasibly ask to have a wedding, baptism or funeral and pay virtually nothing.
Grander churches like abbeys can and do charge substantial fees.
In some cases church membership is needed for a wedding or baptism but not for a funeral where the minister will conduct the service for anyone living in the parish.

I dont like the church tax idea.
Pay to be in it. And if you dont pay, you cant have it.

Are there pastors, or pastoral workers from the church who look after those who dont pay the church tax?

But it is not about being penalised. but paying for the services provided by your 'club'. The Golf Club example amy seem daft- but it illustrates that quite well I think. It could be the squash club, or the Choir to be the rental of the room and the director, etc.

There is a very long tradition of Church goers having to pay a % of income to pay for the running of the Church, salaries, etc.

Weddings are not free, but there is no way the fees charged for weddings would finance the running of the Church (buildings, salaries, services, utilities, etc, etc, etc).

If you are not a believer, and do not wish to avail yourself of the Church services, whatever they are- why not say you do not have a religion.

No one's disagreeing with that, I was just wondering why anyone who does admit to having a Christian leaning should be penalised for it. BTW church weddings in the UK are not free!

Interesting about paying the tax and Church schools - no tax, no Church school- that would put the cat among the pigeons, hey!

Same in Germany btw. And of course Muslims have to pay Zakat during Ramadan- again a proportional of income.

Church members in Germany are required by law to pay tax to fund church activities, which is collected by the government.

Under German law, anyone who was baptised as a child is automatically a member of the church and obliged to pay the tax, charged as a percentage of their income, regardless of their beliefs or whether they attend church services.

Until recently, many Christians have been prepared to pay the extra tax for the benefits it brings them, including access to church schools and day care facilities that are funded by the state.
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German Catholics to be denied Communion under church tax rule 24 Sep 2012

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But the only way out of paying the tax is to make a formal declaration renouncing your membership of the church – and there is a government fee for this as well.

A decision to extend the 8 or 9 per cent charge to capital gains income, or the profit earned from selling an asset, appears to have sparked the sharp decline in church membership.

The new tax regulation was “just the straw that broke the camel’s back for people who were already thinking of leaving”, Ruth Levin, spokesman for the Protestant church in Disnlaken, told Westdeutsche Allgemeine Zeitung newspaper.

The church tax has legally been payable on capital gains for some years, but the German government recently closed a loophole that enabled many church members to avoid paying it because they did not have to declare their capital gains income.

If you are not a believer, and do not wish to avail yourself of the Church services, whatever they are- why not say you do not have a religion. I really don't think, and that is very personal and not a judgement- that you can be 'sort of Christian'- either you are, or you are not.

Ana- the Church has to pay its staff, be they Vicars or secretaries and caretakers- they need to pay for the services they provide, be it t the elderly, the bereaved, the handicapped and the lonely, etc, etc. They need to maintain the buildings, the vehicles, the minibuses- and so much more.

If people want the services of the Church, for weddings and funerals, bereavement counseling, visits to OAP homes, etc, etc, etc,- then they should pay towards it. Would you expect to play for free at your Golf Club, for instance?

We help in the community as we can, we work with the Church and the Vicar and other staff and community (the oecumenical group is having their yearly diner here on Friday- we lend the room for free, etc) but we do not pay Church tax as we do not believe, and we do not use the Church services in any way. We do not believe either, about the 'your cake and eat it' either I do, or I don't. I don't. Through discussions with the Vicars and Church Elders- they really do like honesty- and hate hypocrisy.

There is no Swiss Chruch tax as such- each Canton (County or State- Switzerland, like the USA is a federation of States with their own local lawas and own taxes- as well as national laws and taxes).

You can Google 'compulsory Church tax' and there are several links about different countries, including a Wikipedia page. But each Canton (Kanton in German speaking areas) have their own system with variable rates.

My Canton, and Geneva, voted out of the compulsory system and few years ago - and this is playing havoc with the official Churches as a large part of their funding has gone. They play a large rôle in social services, the elderly, lonely, frail, handicapped, delinquents, OAP homes ad hospitals, home visits, bereavement counselling and so much more. The only reason we were able to buy this 16th C Vicarage is because the had to not replace retiring vicars and sell a large % of their vicarages and other buildings.

We continue to lend part of our house for the local elderly and other groups (the back of the house, the Old Parish Room and kitchen, WCs and facilities- and we have 40+ elderly people from the local area for luncheon 1x a month- and lend the room for local charities and clubs. We are not religious, and do not pay our Church tax- but work conjointly with the Vicars and the Parish to help continue provide the services. We work together very well, with respect.

Granjura, can you send me a link on the Swiss church tax please? I cant find much when I google it. I think I am not finding the right thing.

As so many profess to be sort-of Christians and don't attend regular church services I don't see why any such tax should be requested.

Or are you saying that the system where you live is wrong?

So are you saying that anyone who holds Christian views should be charged for that, granjura?

Very probable indeed...

but wht about YOU here GNeters- who call yourself 'sort of Christian- well more Christian than anything else' - if the system in the UK made it compulsory to pay a Church tax if you put on the Censor or your tax return that you are 'Catholic' or 'Anglican' -etc- would you opt out?

And of course opt out of Church weddings, funerals and so on too.

Now here is our position- we are not believers, we do not go to Church and do not expect any services from the Church or its servants- so we don't pay. Fair enough.

The Danish National Church has a church tax taken out of pay, between 0.4 and 1.5%, I think, but you can say you do not belong to the church and opt out. That could explain why many Danes say they are not members.

So how many of you would pay 2.3% of income extra tax to support your Church, and why?

Joan :'Islam is far too 'in-your-face' for my liking. Why wear Islamic dress in a non-Islamic country'

most Muslims in the world do not wear 'Islamic dress' at all. What you call Islamic dress is in fact reperesentative of some Muslims from certain parts of the world- not 'Muslim dress'. Muslim dress does not exist as such. All my family around the world who are Muslim do not wear any kind of special dress- they just dress 'modestly' eg do not flaunt boobs, or wear suggestive tight clothing. It a bit like saying that wearing a cropped top and short skirt is 'English dress'- it isn't.

Wrote about this before, but I do wonder what % of so called 'cultural Christians' in the UK, who do not really believe, and don't attend Church regularly, only for weddings, funerals, Christenings and Christmas service - would continue to put themselves down as 'Christian' on censuses, if it meant that they would have to pay a compulsory Church tax (as it is the case here where I live- in Switzerland). When the Church tax became optional in my Canton (County) - it was amazing how the % of Christians fell overnight by over 50%, and continues to fall, year after year.

We talked about respect on another thread, and I was talking about this to our local Vicar, a friend. He said it is amazing the number of families who ask for a funeral service for their parents, but then go on to say 'keep the God bit down won't you- it's not really our thing'!!!

Oh yes - but I omit the ultra daft, I mean ultra orthodox from judaism in general, just as I regard pushy ultra-evangelists as an aberration of mainstream christianity.

Most Jews I have known have been perfectly everyday people: I have never been remotely anti-semitic, which made it easier for my when Mum died, the paperwork came out, and I discovered I'm part Jewish myself.

Joan Re your comment about Judaism being "low key" and "unthreatening", I suppose it depends what you mean by those terms.

Recently an ultra-orthodox Jewish school in Stamford Hill, London sent a letter to parents telling them that if mothers continued to drive their children to school those children would be expelled. I believe, because there was a massive outcry and a warning that such a ruling was likely to go against equality laws, it was rescinded (although the women will already have "got the message" and no doubt some of them at least will be nervous to go against it).

Hasn't this thread taken a strange direction?

Meeting your MP or your MP meeting you means the same thing
It doesnt mean the same to me.
One requires much more effort on their part than the other does.
They used to come around much more locally than they bother to do now.

Sorry, posted on wrong thead!

There are a lot who don't think that way but not enough to swing the balance unfortunately dj.