Would you opt out of your 'religion' if you had to pay extra 2.5% tax

"Can't you see..." smacks of desperation. As if you're having a hard job getting your point across to me.

Never mind.

Can't actually say I'm upset Bags.

In Denmark you can opt out of paying Church Tax by checking a box on your tax form. However, this does not prevent you from attending any church services. However, apparently it is easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get into heaven. So, if those are your aspirations it makes sense to give as much of your money as you can to the church (synagogue, mosque or whatever).

I am a wee bit confused by this thread but think I know what Anniebach is getting at. I would put another opinion into this debate.

I do believe in God but left my church some years ago over things that I cannot put on here.
What I will say is, if Christian churches were more welcoming to certain communities of people, perhaps they would find that people would come. If they were also truthful to themselves and tackled issues within the church that need addressing, they may find attendance improved.
It saddened me to leave my church but I really could no longer stand the priest we had (and this person caused REAL difficulty for many people) so I left. The good Christians from this church now pass me in the street without as much as a 'Hi, how are you?'. I was not the only one who left and in all honesty many, many good and decent people have left their church/denomination because the churches are unwelcoming(also too many cliques) and I for one think there is too much religion in churches and not a helluva lot of Christianity. This is the church's loss. I've come across a lot of people who think they are somehow superior, because they attend church and you do not.
This in no way affects my belief in God. I very seldom post on political or religious threads as it usually causes animosity. I think though the church should have got it's head out of the sand and tackled things years ago. I, for one am glad that the church does not have the power over people it did have. Having said this ALL religions/denominations have problems of one sort or another.

What I do find ridiculous is if people do not want a religious service, why get buried from the church, go and get a Humanist service. If you don't want religion, do not go to a church.
One other thing Anniebach, I thought for Baptisms, Weddings, Funerals, is there not a stipend paid? Used to be the case in my church , it was not a compulsory thing but more a recognition/ courtesy to the priest for the service etc.

I didn't understand why you were upset either, jings. jura has given factual accounts as far as she's able.

I think some church buildings should be preserved by "the general purse" because they are historically and culturally important. Even atheists appreciate their religious history and its cultural effects.

Yes Annie, and on and on and on- huge amounts of efforts and time. I have huge respect for the people in our Parish (yes, I'm afraid, mainly ladies, but not all.

There is also a group (and yes, mainly men- I do live in a rural area and traditions endure- who give up time and their care to drive people to hospital for chemo, radiotherapy and other appointments to ophtalmologist, diabetic footcare, etc. NO ambulances here for non urgent medical care), and there is anotehr group, quite mixed, who go out to read to the elderly or those with sight problems, or just visit the frail and lonely, especially. VERY few are not regular Church goers actually. They used to be paid mileage, but no longer, as the money is no longer there.

The monthly luncheon for the elderly of the Parish would have had to be cancelled, if ti wasn't for the fact that the new owners of the Vicarage (it just had to be sold- no way could the Church maintain all the village Vicarages with so few paying the tax) had not agreed to allow this to continue, totally free of charge and help with cooking, serving, cleaning, maintenance and heating cost (like replacing the diswasher last month out of pocket) etc. Much to the surprise of the Church goers, the new owners are not even Church attenders or believers. But they do appreciate it, I can tell you.

Nice post, jura.

So sorry jingl if 'can't you see' has upset you. I would edit it out, but can't.

You've asked questions on how it's done, and I've tried to answer, best I could- even if clumsily. I did explain that this tax is not for Church buildings and maintenance quite clearly, and that this is done by the Council (at general tax payers' expense, be they believers or Church goers, irrespectively) and yet you still question this and says' are you sure it's not for buildings?' - which could also be perceived as vaguely insulting and/or saying I'm stupid- lol, no offence taken. I just repeated that it's not, without getting uppity about it, or offended.

Paid for by those who attend regularly, who clean the church, do the flowers, repair kneelers and alter cloths, polish the brass, run fund raising coffee mornings and provide the eats, hold Christmas tea parties for the lonely and provide the eats, have a soup run over Christmas with flasks of scotch broth for the elderly and yes ingredients provided by the soup runners, keep a drop in centre open for those who need support , advice or even a hug or a fridge. Not forgetting the holly morning, no not holy ,holly, which means going onto farms ,with permission, cutting the damn stuff, tying it up and selling it , the Christmas fayre run by the same volunteers with the money divided between local charities and repairs in the church, even church loos get blocked . These are the people who are often told I am a good a Christian as you but can to be bothered to support the church, don't go to church .

And let's not forget the cost of heating for choirs who just loved to use the church to perform in

See. You're doing it again.

Leaving thread.

I wish you wouldn't say things like, "can't you see...". Sounds mildly insulting. As if the other person is stupid.

Of course jingl, much of it is 'support to and in the community' - but it costs thousands, in salaries, cars, minibus, heating, maintenance of property used for such, etc, etc'. Who do you think pays for that in your area- when it is Church led and provided?

No, the buildings here are heated and maintained by the Council (both Protestant and Catholic) - despite the dwindling number who attend (and I imagine, looking at the figures, that it won't be long before people start questioning this- it's very expensive)- the tax money goes for the running of the Church, as Elegran describes- as well as all the activities run for disabled, elderly, chaplaincy in OAP homes and hospitals, etc, etc.

Now the local Churches are in a terrible quandry- yes of course they want to be welcoming to all, and support those in need, in times of grief and for funerals, and to encourage mariage, etc, etc. And of course those faithfuls who pay the tax want to welcome all with open arms- and yet- as they have to do more and more fundraising to support Church activities as their tax, due to the fact so few pay it, just do not cover costs- as much as they do not want to criticise, and to continue to have open doors- they are scratching their heads and hearts wondering why people who do want to partake somehow are not prepared to contribute- and leave the few to do all the hard work and pay too. Can't you see how that makes them feel?
And how the Vicar feels when asked to do a funeral service, and told to keep the religious stuff out!?! Couples are interviewed about their faith in the mariage preparation course- and many go through he motions and give the 'right' answers and attend for a few week before, and hopefully after.. and then... stop attending, and paying too. Then of course expect children to be baptised (and you are right, baptism is NEVER) refused- neither are funeral services, and weddings very rarely (only if it is toooo obvious that the couple has no belief whatsoever).

Again, think of the Golf Club example. Just not fair.

The government law in Germany will have been inherited from the ancient church tithing law.

There is plenty to spend money on in a parish.

In any country, every congregation has a vicar, who needs a salary and a house to live in. The house has to be maintained and the vicar's car has to be serviced and kept full of petrol for his visits.

The church building, whether it is a crumbling ancient monument, a new building or a tin shed with no insulation, has to be heated, cleaned, the roof fixed, and so on.
The church halls where the other "church activities" go on also have to be heated, cleaned, maintained. Communion supplies cost money. People in distress with no home or no money turn to the church, and are fed or given a donation.

Are you sure it's not just used to preserve ancient church buildings? That would make sense. But 'church activities' for me are giving support in the community.

Surely it would be up to the individual priest to decide who he/she administers to. Would money really be part of that decision?

www.ecumenicalnews.com

ooops post crossed- the tax is not used at all by the Government- it is raised with other taxes, and goes directly to the Churches for their running costs. So let's say you pay tax at, 20%- they add 2.3% for your Church (this exact % varies from place to place- 2.3% is what it is here where I live) - so you pay 22.3%- 2.3% being passed directly to your Church (eg the Synod/diocese for your region/County).

Who writes your Ecumenical News?

Is it handed over to the various denominations in proportion to the number who have said that they are members of each group?

Totally agree jingl- never said anything to the contrary have I?

Not that I'm greatly interested actually. Just seems odd.

I don't see how this tax you are talking about can be used to fund church activities and be collected and used by, the government.

granjura, you can practice a religion without going anywhere near a church. Or even belonging to one. Ask God if you don't believe me. He might answer,"well, I prefer you to do the two or three gathered together thing, but trying to follow the two main commandments of Jesus Christ is the important thing".

Ana, in my opinion - which means not fact just what I think , there are true Christians who don't set a foot in church and false Christians who go often .

Sorry to bring politics into this but for me a true Christian cannot support the government minister who said we couldn't take many refugees because it would lower our standard of living , it is impossible to support this and claim to be a Christian because it is against his teachings .

jingl- who do you think pays Ministers, staff, and the huge cost of keeping such an institution going, pay for the social activities they organise, etc, etc, etc). The reason the tax has become compulsory in many countries is that Churches (not just the buildings- I mean the running, salaries, and so much more) are vastly expensive to keep going- and that the community should not pay for it, but those who adhere to that particular Church/faith- and not the community via normal taxes.

Of course if you do not want to avail of their services, no-one can know whether you are a believer or not, deep in your heart.

Again, if you play golf at the Golf Club, pay fees (I'm afraid that is the same even if you don't play daily or weekly)- or stop playing.