From the Humanist Association - discuss

Neither do I AnnieB- just depends if either try to influence (endoctrinate?) the children, or 'just' teach them in the best, most respectful way- without pushing their beliefs on them, whatever they are.

I know many brilliant Christian teachers of so many different Christian Churches who have done and do, teach really well- children from all ethnicities and religious or secular backgrounds. Sadly I have also come across some really bad examples of non-tolerance for those who are not Christian- quite shocking some of them.

Like the Methodist Minister who used to come and do assemblies at one of the schools I taught at. On a very important Hindu festival, with a good % of pupils being Hindu- he spent the whole Assembly talking about Leveticus and other on the subject of idolatry (“You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to it, for I am the LORD your God.) - knowing full well that all those children would go home and be expected to do just that, as part of their religion- that very day. I still regret not having trhe guts to tackle him on that and make a complaint. Respect goes all ways, not just the one.

Eloethan, I was asking a question, if some do not want children taught by people of faith then I ask why should children be taught by atheists, my children and grandchildren have been taught by both, I had no objection to either

Well done Justin Welby for your apology to gay and lesbian Christians today.

Indeed- and I was surprised by that comment by AnnieB. It makes atheists sound like they would be terrible teachers and people.

About standing quietly and respectfully- as said in an earlier post- I do that regularly without any problem. But in a Government position- it is very different. Again, as stated before, in a multicultural area in particular, should we not then begin the meeting with a Sikh, Muslim, Jain, Buddist, Jewish, Humanist, Atheist and anarchist prayer/contribution then? I totally understand the concept of tradition and history- but the OP stated figures, from the CofE- which show that despite those- the number is now so small, that giving a special status and time, does not longer make sense. Same for automatic seats in Lords (and I agree with you totally about party givers btw).

It makes total sense to me that you should be a God Parent AnnieB- as a practising Christian and believer- my point is about those who agree to be a GP who are neither believers nor practising- and therefore should not make the promises as per the link I provided from CofE and RC. And totally agree too that you can support the children and their faith and search, but that you cannot 'make' them believe-just guide them along the way to their own decision, in your faith, best you can- and I am sure you did your very best.

Anniebach Your comment "Why should children of faith be taught by atheists?" doesn't sound particularly tolerant and respectful to me.

All it takes Gill57, tolerance and respect . I have five godchildren and two I took on who were godchildren of my husband, they were small when he died , eldest of mine is now nearly fifty, I still keep track of her and she and the others know I am always willing to support them , I was sad some didn't get confirmed but this was their choice so I respected it

granjura, I didn't give an opinion on CofE bishops in the lords. I am a member of the Church in Wales , Anglican but disestablished years ago , doesn't trouble me that a bish sits in the lords, we have party donors giving a title to get their bum on the seats , I trust the bishops before the party donors

Thats what I do Anniebach at WI, I stand out of respect for other's beliefs, but I do not sing Jerusalem or the National Anthem. As for being a godparent, I am godparent to a young man who I have not seen since he was a baby, his parents do not attend church, neither do I, but they wanted the big fancy christening in the local Cathedral. Such hypocrisy.

I've addressed this question already Anniebach.

Again, from the British Humanist association FaceBook page, which I follow:

QUOTE:

'BHA Campaigns Manager Richy Thompson commented, ‘The fact that one denomination of one church retains the unique right for 26 of its bishops to sit and vote on matters in the House of Lords is unfair, unjustified, and unpopular – even 70 percent of Christians are against it. Just this week the Church of England has published new figures showing that weekly attendance continues to fall, now representing just 1.5% of the population as a whole – and for the first time ever, fewer people attend church each week than children attend Anglican worship each day in state-funded Church of England schools.

‘The UK is the only democracy to reserve seats in its legislature for religious leaders, and this is an anachronism that must change.’

So it seems the figures quotes in the OP and the initial statement I quoted in the OP, were published by the C of E.

Impossible to be a godparent unless one is a Christian ,

When are people forced to pray and where ? Do they have a gun in their back? What's wring with remaining silent, I don't sing the UK national anthem but I have respect for those who do, so I stand and remain silent

I think we should keep religion out of education. I felt so sorry for the three or four children of 'other faith' families at my junior school who were not allowed (by their faith) to join in school assemblies or parties at Christmas or school outings. They were ostracised and labelled 'odd' from the start. It is useful for the whole school to gather together regularly so that notices can be given out and so on but this need not be a religious gathering. As a poster above says, religion can be acknowleged in the home but it should be kept out of school. I agree with mumofmadboys' post, though, that many more of us than attend church services hold a residual belief - and thank God for that!

I firmly believe in freedom to worship as people wish, and also think that RE, as in religious education, not Bible Studies, should be on the curriculum as a means of explaining belief systems to our children. I do however do not approve of religious schools whether they be CofE, Catholic, Muslim or Jewish or any other. If parents wish to have their children instructed in their faith then this should be done out of usual school hours. My senior school had a high percentage of Jewish pupils and some of them, especially the boys as they approached barmitzvah attended evening classes. i think it is arrogant to state that only Judea/Christian teachings are suitable as a foundation for general behaviour and law making. On a personal note, I deeply resent the mandatory singing of Jerusalem at the start of WI meetings ( and God Save the Queen at the end) so I compromise by standing with the others and not singing either song.

Namaste, and as Dave Allen said 'may your God go with you'

I often do wonder why other people join GN. For some, clealy, it is for advice, often in a difficult situation. For some, it is probably for friendship- perhaps due to loneliness, for any reason.

For me, the only reason is because I still feel so passionately about the country that became mine and where I lived for 39 years- all my adult life really. The fact I now live abroad (my native country, yes)- makes little difference. In fact it does make a big difference. There are very few people here with whom I can talk about England- as they do not have experience of its people, places, foods, culture, politics (inlcuding the offcial rôle of CofE and the FPP 'non democratic' system) institutions like the NHS or our (yes, our) unique education system (both with all their +s and also, lets be honest, -s).... As said, we may well be back at some point, but even we we do not, we are very frequent visitors, and all our nearest and dearest are there- with their life influenced by the above- especially our grandchildren.

Will end with a short conversation I had with GS over Christmas, he is 9 and goes to a CofE school (yes their local school- no choice) : 'Granny, to your believe in God?' me 'no F, I do not. Why are you asking?' He: 'sister (6) believes in all that stuff they tell us all the time in school- it gets ever so awkward you know'. Me: don't spoil things for her, and just listen quietly and nod'. He nods and smile- and life goes on.

Thank you anno. I thought, and obviously I was wrong- that the title 'Form the Humanist Association' with the text following, would make it clear it was a quotation from an article- and not my own. Sorry if that was not clear.

Eloethan, thank you. As I have said before, how long do you have to live in the UK, as a British Citizen- before being allowed to comment or care about it. So many complaints about 'foreigners' not integrating - but when they do ... tell them its none of their business. Funny in a way, that, no.

This is the article which mentions the percentage of the population attending church on any one Sunday. I won't go into the arguments for disestablishment of the C of E, but I do consider that the article makes an unanswerable case for it.

Well I am sorry if I appeared to be unpleasant, but I had no way of knowing the comment about Justin Welby was a quote (reference? Quotation marks?) or indeed from whom. To say "Justin Welby's quote" if that is what you meant, means a quotation by JW and this clearly is not.
I note I was not aone in thinking the description "disdainful" was from the OP or in defending Welby.
As to the rest, I do not wish to get involved in a hatchet job on any religion. We have an amazing and enviable degree of religious freedom in this country, and if France's legislation on laicisation (?) is anything to go by, it creates many more problems for minority religious groups than it solves for the Catholic members of the population. Listen to last Monday's "Beyond Belief" Radio 4 if you are unconvinced.

granjura has on many occasions said that she is British, that she has friends and relatives in the UK and that she has lived in the UK for many years.

Even if that were not the case, I've seen several comments on Gransnet about the way other countries are run and why not? Are only people who live in the UK allowed to make comments about it? There are religious and secular states all round the world and so it is a principle we are talking about as much as what happens in the UK.

It would be nice if people could present a sound argument and not resort to being unpleasant.

I am not, and have never been, part of the Humanist Assoc btw.

This ia quote, clearly, and not my words, as you well know.

I am British, and spend part of my life in the UK. I may well return to the UK at some point- and with our adult children, and our grand-children and much family and many friends there, and certainly a part of our heart there, as well as all my adult life, and his whole life- why are you so surprised I am interested in what happens in the UK. This is why I am on GN. I've explained that many, many times- so it is getting to be a bit tedious to have to do so again, no. My grandchildren are in a CofE school, just as mine were- because the LOCAL STATE SCHOOL is a CofE school- and not by choice. We've been over that several times too. It is not fair that local parents should have to take their children out of the area, away from friends, and transported there and back + clubs, etc- in order to avoid a religious school. What choice is that, pray tell?

You could even say, that having had to Swear my Allegiance to our Queen, under Oath- makes me even more so ( ;) )

Given that you live in Switzerland, you seem very "het up" about "our institutions"
I get the sense of much ado about an issue which has been raised with the express intention of shooting it down not unlike a row of ducks at a funfair.

I find it odd that you don't remember your own words, granjura

Justin Welby's quotation in this article is quite something, too. 'The culture has become anti-Christian, whether it is on matters of sexual morality, or the care for people at the beginning or the end of life,' he told the meeting in Canterbury, alluding disdainfully to our tolerant liberal society's progressive attitudes to same-sex relationships, assisted dying, and abortion

This is where you called him "disdainful", gj, in your initial post.

I don't see how granjura, you can be 'forced' to take part if others at a council meeting are praying. On this thread you have expressed the respect you feel towards people of any faith. That hasn't stopped me developing the impression that you consider many people who claim to have a faith to be hypocrites.
I share the view expressed by many on this thread that the UK would benefit from the separation of state and faith. I'd prefer there not to be faith schools and feel genuine concern about the increase in free schools, as well as some elements of home educators where creationism or the imposition of bigoted views of people of other faiths seem to be increasing. Those issues seem to me to be a very far cry from many of the traditions in the UK, which may seem outdated but do reflect the cultural heritage of the country.

In the R. Catholic Church:

Q. 1. To qualify as Godparent, does the person have to meet certain requirements?

A. 1. Yes! Not everyone qualifies to be a Godparent. The Catholic Church provides a detailed guideline that must be obeyed. "To be admitted to undertake the office of Sponsor, a person must:" [Canon Law # 874.1] a. "be appointed by the candidate for baptism, or by the parents or whoever stands in their place, or failing these, by the parish priest or the minister; to be appointed the person must be suitable for this role and have the intention of fulfilling it;" [Canon Law # 874.1.1]

b. "be not less than 16 years of age, unless a different age has been stipulated by the diocesan Bishop, or unless the parish priest or the minister considers that there is a just reason for an exception to be made;" [Canon Law # 874.1.2]

c. "be a catholic who has been confirmed and has received the blessed Eucharist, and who lives a life of faith which befits the role to be undertaken;" [Canon Law # 874.1.3]

d. "not labour under a canonical penalty, whether imposed or declared;" [Canon Law # 874.1.4]

e. "not be either the father or the mother of the person to be baptised." [Canon Law # 874.1.5]

f. "A baptised person who belongs to a non-catholic ecclesial community may be admitted only in company with a catholic Sponsor, and then simply as a witness to the baptism." [Canon Law # 874.2]

Sorry Tricia- perhaps you could explain then. Sometimes hard to get the point with a short comment. Thanks.

Absent, spot on, thanks.