From the Humanist Association - discuss

Oh Annie don't get me going on who is in the house of Lords

As long as the head of state is also top of the pile in the CofE things will not change , every memorial service , every celebration must be held in an Anglican Church because queenie doesn't do worship in any other church

I suppose it saves the hassle of deciding where a memorial or thanksgiving service will be held, if the Anglican Church were to be disestablished it would mean a lot of coin tossing, I don't care if it is separated from the state , I have no problem with 26 English bishops in the lords, how many English dukes are there ?

Elegran

Anyway, back to the point, not merely a diatribe on "faith" schools?
And also, remember we are not talking about the UK, but England.
By "church members" do we know which church? (C of E, Methodist, United Reformed??)
Even the Grauniad projections seem to be at variance with the figures quoted in the original post.
What's that quote about "Lies, damned lies and statistics"???

Alea I agree that arguments that are based on data need to be accurate and up to date.

As you will guess my opinion is not dependent on how many people attend church or self nominate themselves as Christian. Even if the vast majority of citizens were actively rather than nominally Christian I would still argue for separation of church and state. When one denomination, of one religion, is perceived to be favoured and hold more sway in a 'democracy' of what is now a far more diverse society than when Henry VIII created the break from Rome it is divisive and to be fair, unnecessary!

Granjura, thank you for replying, with respect there is no such thing as a a psalm which is not toooo religious and I am not silly or judging , you did say they asked for no religion now this has become not tooooo religious . I am puzzled by your views on this thread sorry

alea When did the facts keep anyone from indulging in a good rant argument?

However (both sources the Gardian- of course ;) ):

In 2013, there were 5.4 million church members in the UK, 10% of the adult population, taken as 15 and over, 300,000 fewer than five years previously in 2008, when it was 12%. It is likely to continue to decline at about the same rate for the next 12 years, reaching 9% by 2020 and 8% by 2025, if present trends continue.

However, the RC in particular should be quite pleased about this:

Mass migration of Christians to Britain from countries such as Poland and Romania is among the factors helping to stem the decline in church attendance, according to new figures.

I believe you may have missed this post on Friday 16.46:

Just this week the Church of England has published new figures showing that weekly attendance continues to fall, now representing just 1.5% of the population as a whole – and for the first time ever, fewer people attend church each week than children attend Anglican worship each day in state-funded Church of England schools.

We seem to have moved a long way from the topic of the disestablishment of the Church of England which was, I assume, what the article OP quoted was about. However, the figures on which OP's argument are based may not altogether tally with those quoted in the recent census.

Religion in the United Kingdom and in the countries that preceded it has been dominated, for over 1,400 years, by various forms of Christianity. In 2011 nearly 60% identified themselves as Christians in the National Census 2011, 25.7% responded 'no religion', and 7.2% gave no answer. (7.6% of the population are Muslims, Hindus, and other religions)[1]. In the 2015 BSA survey only 42% described themselves as Christian, whilst the majority (49%) of UK residents said they are of 'No Religion

These figures seem very different indeed from those given by the Humanist Association, and regardless of whether or not we feel the disestablishment of the church is overdue, we should not leap to the conclusion that only 1.4% of the population subscribes to any form of organised religion.
Perhaps the extract quoted is selective or at best incomplete, but when sweeping generalisations are made, it behoves us to be fully aware of the facts. Our opinions may be another matter, but first principles should dictate that we know what we are talking about.

To those of you, mainly C/E posters, who I am feeling want the status quo to continue because you feel church schools are better than community schools ( in some cases people also think this includes academically and socially) because they promote Christianity, would you like your DGCs to go to schools that promoted Humanism?

If not why is it OK for Humanist parents, who do not have the choice of a local non church school, to send their kids to a school that promotes a faith they do not share?

By having secular schools no family needs to feel disadvantaged because schooling in a chosen faith/belief system would still be available via Sunday schools etc.

Sorry fat finger syndrome: Those missionaries

Anniebach you can be an Indian or Tibetan Anglican Christian. Thise missinaries got about

Annib, sorry been out and also felt it was time to give this thread a break, as it si going roung in circle.

I do not live in a rough area- but in a rural one. Most people have not travelled much, and are either Protestants (the locals) or Catholics (the immigrants from Italian, Spanish and Portuguese families who arrive post war- or like my dad's family that came from another part of my country which is Catholic). We also have a few sects, including JW and other Evangelical groups, but very small numbers. And an increasing number who are either openly non-religious, or either P or RC but rarely attended Church. But a few years back- they voted for the Church Tax that financed both the P and RC Church to become optional. And those latter ones- who put their name down as P or RC, because they were born in a RC or P family- but were no longer very religious, decided to stop paying- leaving both Churches in a mess without the necessary finances to continue providing so much for the community at large. And with an ageing population of Church goers having to do all the hard work and fund-raising- and their numbers dwindling day by day and not being replaced.

The poor don't pay the tax or very little of course as said- and no-one is refused a funeral service or baptism, and very rarely a wedding- so to suggest that this would be the case was just silly- yes, truly, and again showing how much some want to mis-interpret or twist- or JUDGE wrongly.

So, to get back to the 'non religious service'. In this rural area, having a humanist funeral would take a lot of organising- in the whole of my part of Switzerland, I know of only one non religious celebrant, who lives about 50miles away. And of course there are no suitable building available either- apart from the Crematorium also about 50km away. So most people, religious or not- have a funeral at the local Church, and only the Protestant or RC Priest are allowed to perform the service. Other denominations are not allowed to use the Church (despite the fact that the Council owns the building and pays for maintenance and heating out of our taxes- yes those who are not religious or belong to other evangelical groups- not fair is it).

Hence the oft request for the local Vicar to 'tone it down' and mainly talk about the deceased and their life, and pick readings and psalms which are not tooooo religious and easier in content. Of course the ceremony is still religious, but very much toned down. I've been to many funerals lead by the same lovely Vicar, and the readings and singing, and address, have been VERY different depending on the faith or non-faith of the deceased. Not sure that explains it well enough.

As I was 19 when I came to the UK, I never did vote in SWitzerland as I was not close enough to what was happening there- totally integrated in the UK, family, friends, my professional life (in education- so I do know a bit about UK education system as I taught in UK schools where I also did my teaching Degree). My kids when to a CofE school, my grandkids are in a CofE shcool (yes- they are as the alternative is a 'sink' school). Some here will know the 2 schools I have in mind in my old town- the University area- where the 2 primary schools illustrat very well all the points I made in previous posts totally. With a property still in the UK, all our children, grand-children and family and friends in the UK, where we will probably return one day- yes, I continue to take a keen interest in what is happening there, but can't vote any longer as we've been out of the country for over 5 years. I won't stop me caring though. Merci.

roses, yes about "that day" rolling on. Bring it on

ab, re your comment at 2239 last night, what about the school segregation of the children of Anglican parents from children of other or no religion? That's the kind of segregation that is meant as well.

I went to segregated schools, Catholic ones. I hardly met anyone who wasn't a Catholic until I was an adult. That is wrong and ridiculous in this day and age.

Would it not be helpful if Granjura explained how a church service is held without and mention of religion m is this church Anglican , RC , non conformist , Mormon ?

Never said I did as far as I can remember!

It is not possible to have a no religion church service

And to tell a poster they are being silly is castigating , why not - sorry but you are mistaken

Jalima was not being castigated for expressing an opinion on what happens in Switzerland. She was being corrected on something that she had got wrong. I agree that no one has sole ownership, so presumably you accept that it is not acceptable to imply that posters not living here should not comment on issues relating to the UK.

I got the impression Jalima was being castigated discouraged from expressing her opinion on what goes on in Switzerland, as in Calm down, dear "Don't be silly". Patronising at best. Of course we can all express an opinion about another country's habits, customs or procedures, but nobody necessarily has the prerogative of sole ownership.

Jalima What is the problem about discussing what happens in other countries? I feel quite sure that we have had threads about gun laws in the US - and have expressed some quite robust opinions on that. Your overseas relatives may well decide that they should not vote in this country even though they are entitled to, that is their prerogative.

granjura was expressing an opinion based on her own experiences here and where she now lives. You are perfectly entitled to disagree strongly with her - as you and others have - but I don't think you're entitled to imply that because she doesn't live here she shouldn't put forward her views.

Well, Strong views are expected on a thread where Christians feel they are threatened ( they are not really, of course, just some feel it would be better if the schools were all secular) but it really has been going around in circles on here for some time, so no point continuing.How about leave it that we all have different views on life ( which is exactly what this is!)Do carry on, by all means though,if you have the stamina or the will!?

They can't really, can they anniebach, and perhaps having a religious service for waverers may bring a few more sheep back into the fold.

I think that most vicars are happy to do the match, hatch and despatch bit for people who do not normally go to church; but they make it clear that it cannot be a non-religious service - they are in the business of religion and that must be a given. It would be a nonsense otherwise.

There are humanist celebrants who can do these ceremonies now; they made an excellent job of my parents' funerals and we were very happy with their respectful and professional approach.

C of E schools are often filled with a large cross-section of pupils, if they are functioning in the state system. I hope that they would respect the religious backgrounds of the pupils; and ideally they should respect that of agnostic or atheist families too - but I doubt whether that actually happens.