From the Humanist Association - discuss

They do try their best not to judge- but how would you feel- if your Church lost its funding from one day to the next- as people suddenly refuse to pay the Church tax. Suddenly, the Vicarages have to be sold, the Vicars and other support staff sacked, services cut, social acitivities for those that need it have to be curtailed, etc, etc- and you remain- as a small number of volunteers, with your Church having no lands and riches (as the CofE in England has (remember henry VII and all that- the riches are still there to soe extent- large portfolios, land, housing, etc and the RC certainly is very rich)- often elderly, left to fund-raise for it all- whilst others mis-use and do b.... all, and have the cheek to ask for religion to be kept out of it.

I am not one of them, as you well know- but I truly feel for them, and have absolute and total admiration for their patience and lack of judgement. I help as I can in my community- providing services and more as I can, as a non religious, and non Church attendee- they are always surprised as to why. And the answer is always, just makes sense to me. and what goes around comes around- and thank you for being so kind at the time for my parents. You don't have to be religious to be helpful and kind or have a strong moral framework- whatever that is. As well you know, I am sure.
So you prefer to 'attack' those who actually defend and respect those who are sincerely religious- than those who mis-use to their own end, and even teach? That's fine- strange morality though, I'd say.

I have huge respect for my Christian friends here, and am glad that they think that having Church schools is an anathema and divisive. I'll stick with them (in quiet respect).

I am now curious if I was a sheep or a goat

Sorry but not how a Christian should think surely ? , hurt because they are told keep that religious stuff out ? This is common if one works for a church , and riled ? Are they riled because they give money to their church and the church is used by people of little or no faith? They will spend their lives being hurt and riled because it happens everywhere and always will.

Hurt because someone has a funeral service , as the deceased couldn't speak how do they know what faith if any the deceased had

I am with lilygran on this. I think that religion is a matter for each individual and choices that might on the surface appear hypocritical may not be so to the person involved. Live and let live I think. It is up to the churches themselves to blow a fuse if they feel they are being exploited in some way.

Religion in churches is fine - enforced religion in state institutions is a trouble to me.

I agree with Lilygran.

As regards the thread. Is is not a moot point, now we have Free Schools, and there is always Home Ed which is only loosely supervised.

granjura it seems to me that a number of the things that you object to about the practice of religion are really a matter for the personal conscience of other people. If someone chooses to act as a godparent without being a believer, it's their responsibility to carry out the duties. If people choose to marry in a religious ceremony, have their children baptised or hold a religious funeral for a family member, we have to give them the benefit of the doubt. What can we really know about what people believe?

As relevant then as it is now, hence the repeat. Thanks.

Certainly would separate the sheep from the goats - as it did here.

Tragically, those devout Christians who are my friends and neighbours, and with whom I work as a volunteer- now find themselves working harder and harder (and many are not young) having to fund-raise like crazy to keep their Church and the many fantastic activities going - whilst at the same time seeing those who do not pay and do not help- making demands on those services (weddings, funerals, home visits, bereavement, alcohol, depression, etc, counselling- reading for the blind, and so much more) whilst at the same time having the cheek and disrespect to say 'keep all that religious stuff out, won't you- not our thing?'. They try not to judge, try to keep smiling and paying through the nose, both in money and in work and time, but I know it riles and hurts deeply.

Using the Church and its staff and volunteers as an 'insurance policy' is amazingly disrespectful in this context, truly.

Amen.

That's cleared it up, I wasn't sure if I had joined in a discussion on it here or in bible study , it was just so familiar, thank you

You started a thread asking how many would opt out of their religion if required to pay a tax last month, granjura. I think it ran its course...

Again, both of you choose to pick and twist my words. Did you not read the bit about the wonderful wedding I went to- and the fact I attend many Christian funerals (as part of a group who helps organise social acitivities and luncheons for the elderly here). I totally get the comforting words and psalms, and the creed, and the promises made- for those who believe- and as you say for those who are not 'sure' (although the insurance policy does smack a bit of hypocrisy if I may say).

I am talking about feeling uncomfortable with the psalms sung or read, the promises for the future, etc- when I knew the people very well, and knew, from discussions with them in the past- that they would NOT believe in what is being said, promised or sung- in any way, shape or form. In a rural area like the one where I live, there are no humanist options really, you either have a religious funeral at the local Church (the Vicar being horrified to be regulalry told 'none of that religious stuff, we don't go for that sort of thing - which is so !!! and the Vicar hates it - a good friend he is- we talk a lot). When you have a friend or neighbour whom you know perfectly well was NOT religious and you think he would turn in his coffin if he knew!

Same for weddings- wonderful when people believe in what they are doing and saying and promising- embarrasing and so disrespectful when it is just for the video. And don't tell me this does not happen - please.

I totally agree tha many Christians are not regular Church goers and yet still sincere believers. However- where does one put that fine line? As said before, where I live it became INSTANTLY VERY OBVIOUS where that fine line was, as when the Church tax became optional- the ones who put either Protestant or RC on the census forms, out of habit and tradition/history- suddenly vanished into thin air overnight - leaving those two Churches in terrible trouble. They had to sell several Vicarages (we bought one, lucky us), stopped having regular services in all Churches and change to a rosta, cut down on staff and services to the needy, poor, drug-addicts, the elderly and the frail, in hospitals, etc- as the funds just - vanished!

So, how many of those Christians who do not attend Church- would also 'vanish' in the UK in similar circumstances. I wouldn't presume- you think about it and come to your own conclusions. Would you choose to pay 2 to 3% extra tax to support your Church if you were not a 'sincere and committed' Christian? Some of you would, I am sure. Others? You only know. The Protestant Church here, unlike RC and the Anglican Church in the UK, have no money or vast property/land portfolio, and the Church tax was their sole income.

it is like an insurance policy.
And it can bring comfort even to those who may doubt.

Even if people do not attend church regularly they may feel that having their child baptised is the right thing to do for the child's sake (they can always make up their own minds later), that having the blessing of the church on their marriage is a good thing and that having a Christian funeral for a loved one (unless that person stated in life that they did not want one) is the best thing that they can do for the deceased.

Perhaps they feel, even if they are not totally devout themselves, it is like an insurance policy. You never know.

I've been to a number of humanist funerals granjura. I found that as with a Church services, so much depended on the skill of the celebrant and the relationship between celebrant and the family and Loved ones of the deceased. You say that all can attend without feeling uncomfortBle as I creed is read, no religious songs with strange or incomprehensible words sung.
i found your sweeping generalisation to be critical and dismissive off those of us who welcome and find comfort in religious funerals. you repeatedly insist you respect the right of people to follow a faith but your true feelings will find expression, as I feel your earlier post demonstrates

Anniebach DGS's school is constantly having fundraisers, it's a fee-paying RC school overseas (the fees are very small in comparison to private schools in the UK). It is a very small school but the facilities are very good.

a small minority should not have such a strong influence on schools and other insitutions

Well, the Humanist Association is a miniscule minority in comparison and is trying to impose their views.

I have been to Humanist funerals, at one they played the Rolling Stones.

I should imagine that anyone but the most devout of Christians would claim not to be a member of the church if it meant paying 3% extra on their income tax - perhaps that should be abolished! .

Years ago our local church suggested a tithe ^A tithe (/ˈtaɪð/; from Old English: teogoþa "tenth") ^which DF refused to pay and continued to put in a collection envelope with what he felt was reasonable and what we could afford; he could not afford to give one-tenth of his income to the church nor should anyone be forced to do so imo.

And church schools are supported by communities who fund raise for the school , well the ones I know do , can't speak for the country

Lack of funds - church schools have the backing of various trusts and it makes it possible to provide a better education.

The children at Church scools are just as much a mixture as at any other school. I think you are just trotting out same old, same old. TBH.

I do not believe parents avoid their children mixing with children of other ethnic backgrounds. Not in this day and age.

But Granjura why is it that so many parents go to these lengths to get their children into these schools? What is it that makes the schools so appealing to parents? And could you have whatever it is without the Christian ethos? And if you could, why haven't we?

Alea, you have't made any attacks, some consider a disagreement with their opinion an attack, if this was so I am under attack on every thread, your posts have not been in anyway attacks

Will be doing, shortly I should think.

Well, risesarered had just posted everyone has left this thread because of me

Keeping off the thread for now- but many points have made made to which I will respond at some point. Alea, your constant attacks are becoming tiresome and so obvious to others too. As has been said so often 'play the ball, not the person

Please tell me what "constant" attacks you are referring to?'.

Worth Googling indeed- my sil and bil + niece were just 1 small example- but they are not alone- there is a huge increase in cheating which is very well documented.

jingl - your saying that we need more Church schools as parents are prepared to cheat and defraud to get their kids in one ... (for NO religious reasons in the great majority of cases) proves the very point. If parents are faced between a 'sink' school (with a disproportionate of poor children, children from difficult backgrounds, children from immigrant background without English as first language, etc, etc, - where they are all concentrated as the other children are sent to the Church school, by hook or by crook) - that we need GOOD SCHOOLS FOR ALL CHILDREN- so that parents are not forced into that impossible choice. ALL CHILDREN deserve good schools, not just Christian ones or those whose parents will pretend and lie re it.

As Penstemmon clearly stated in her post at 23.20.31 (and she should know due to her job) parents often choose a Church School which is not as good as the other non Church school, due to perception- eg that less 'undesirable' children will attend - including other ethnic minorities, etc., and children from different religions or none. Perhaps appropriate here to begin to think about reasons (which are NOT religious in most cases). Why.

Talking about Democracy. OK figures stated in the OP say only 1.4% of Christians regularly attend Church. Even if we admit, and I do, that many are Christians and believers, but do not go to Church- we get to perhaps 10%, 15% maybe 20%. How does that sit with 'live and let live' if that small percentage's tail is allowed to totally wag the dog in their favour? Democracy?

Jalima- I attend Christian funerals all the time, and weddings too. Respectfully- whislt knowing that in many cases the deceased or the couple to be married- do not or would not believe a word of what is being said. I went to a Christian wedding last year, and they were both devout Christian and their whole family too- it was wonderful because I knew they were sincere- and the Vicar was beaming too. Will be the same when their future children are baptised. I arranged Christian funeral for my parents too, according to their wishes- of course.

Jalima, you are new on GN perhaps- or like many have changed your name (some have done so so many times it's hard to keep up) - but I wonder about the number of people who put their name down as CofE or RC, who do not go to Church apart from weddings and funerals- or for a year before admittance of child to their Faith school- would continue to do so- if, as said before, they would therefore (as is the case in many European Countries, like Germany and Switzerland) doing so would result in having to pay an extra 3% in income tax to cover Church cost. Now that would be proof of the pudding indeed. Would you?

Attending a Humanist funeral or wedding or welcome (for a new baby) is totally different. Everyone can do it without feeling uncomfotable, as no creed is read, no religious songs with strange and often incomprehensible words are sung, no promises are made they can't or won't be kept. Like comparing apples and oranges.

NOWHERE on this thread has anyone attacked religion in any way, shape or form, at all. Only saying that in a democracy, a small minority should not have such a strong influence on schools and other insitutions (like the Lords and Council Meetings) and that all children deserve good schools in a fair system. You know that is the case. attacking posters and twisting, distorting words- will not change facts.