Secular Lent?

Woke up today with these words from the C. of E. Confession in my head: 'And we have done those things which we ought not to have done, and there is no health in us.'

Like to think that this thread & not guilty conscience inspired that!

Probably shouldn't have said 'fads,' but there was so much rattling round my head. Like most things it's all in how it's done: certainly there's not always a fad or trend element re. vegetarian/vegan - they can be very sensible choices sensibly made, and I apologise if I sounded narrow or rude. I grew up in a very cultured/arty set so have known lots of vegetarians, and followers of esoteric ideas, for ages. (Does anyone remember Benger's Food?) Most of it seemed quite normal to me as I was partly surrounded by it. Many of these ideas are much older than most realize; many are very healthy. I don't have a problem with anyone's individual choices. But they are sometimes presented, or taken up, in a bit of a faddish way. Since people are individuals that seems inevitable. I know some who are very level-headed about being v. or v., and others who come across as wanting to look, sound, and generally be as much like celebrities/guru-followers as possible.

As others have mentioned, for those of us who remember rationing and/or poverty, the general attitude towards food today is quite unsettling. Back to what I said before about excess in general being the order of the day. The idea of a healthy medium went with the Snark, apparently, and now we even do moderation to excess.

It wasn't just food I meant; it was partly a way of lumping together lots of the new values/ideas/ways of life. I do think there's a sort of faddishness to a great deal of it, or at least the way it's often presented. MOnica, like you I find the 'cleanseder-than-thou' attitude most off-putting and think it's very perceptive of you to have seen the connection. It's something Mum and I used to talk about in a general way but I'd never made such a specific link, and it's really interesting.

Lemongrove, you make some excellent points, esp. re. 'cult of the "me" with a bit of virtue signalling thrown in for good measure' - couldn't be better said. And I love the way you summarise the Priestley quote as 'people won't believe in nothing.' That's really quite profound, every bit as much as the original quote itself. Thanks to all for sharing your wonderful GN minds!

There are ethnic/religious groups whose diet is meat free. Significant parts of India are vegetarian, not to mention the Jains. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain_vegetarianism is a very interesting article about their diet and beliefs and some of them can be more vegan than vegan.

I see nothing especially faddy or abnormal about choosing to be vegetarian or vegan, but I do raise my eyes heavenwardss (how appropriate!) when those who do espouse these diets think it entitles them to a certain moral virtue, again the confusion between food; fasting; and mysticism.

Yes I agree, we have the choice to eat a variety of foods , so you can’t dismiss choosing to not eat meat, for example, as any more a “fad” than choosing kebabs or burgers - it's just a choice , not a psychological problem or anything anyone is forced to do. Those who voluntarily starve themselves to dangerous levels are, however, quite rightly, seen as needing psychiatric treatment.

We are lucky enough (living in this country) to be able to indulge any food fad that we choose to, that is the point.

I don’t see how going vegan is a first world fad anymore than stuffing yourself with pork pies and processed food is a first world fad, rather a rejection of first world fads which aren’t necessarily personally or environmentally healthy.

I don’t think it’s the latter (natural cycle feasting/famine)
But rather a secular version of fasting.
I also think it’s another cult of the ‘me’ with a bit of virtue signalling thrown in for good measure.

lemongrove my real curiosity has developed as this thread has developed, from whether the current dieting frenzy is a secular version of the periods of fasting found in most religions (Lent, Ramadan) to whether the need for fasting in these religion and, in a secular world the current need to fast, diet, restrict what food one eats, detox, or embrace lean living is a response to some primeval need to respond to a natural cycle of feasting and fasting caused by the seasonal availability of food.

Interesting OP M0nica and I think you are probably right in wondering about having (needing) something in your life that is more than ‘you’ in fact I have always thought that.
There is a proliferation of weird things around, such as ‘healing crystals’ and general ‘fairies at the bottom of the garden’ sort of stuff.Humans will fill the void if they reject
Christianity ( or any other religion) even sometimes making a sort of religion out of atheism.
There was a JB Priestly quote upthread which the essence of is that once people stop believing in God, they won’t then believe in nothing, but in anything and everything.
The Puritanical message of denying yourself can be a good one, even as just an excercise in self control, although going vegan for a month, seems to be a sort of first world fad and indulgence more than anything else.

I am going to have to think about haporthrosies post before I post more. There is a lot of meat there.

SueDonim, marvelous name you've got, and the Trade Descriptions people definitely need to do something about that cookbook! Lol! Thank you Eglantine. Makes me want to write a 'How Not to Diet' cookbook.

Jalima, really good point about how unnatural our lives are. And don't feel bad about the Toblerone. I have a theory that the naughtier I am, the more chance it gives God to prove how marvelous He is! Re. fasting, personally I think it can be as you say, to clear the mind for meditation/prayer, or (take your pick): spiritual cleansing, especially in the sense of repentance (Yom Kippur in Judaism good example), a way of showing that you're willing to make sacrifices for what you believe in, following the example of someone who's venerated in your religion (i.e. Christ & Lent), or just respect for the traditions of your religion. A Catholic friend recently explained to me that lots of R.C.'s view it partly as a form of 'practice'/preparation for the sufferings that nearly always come with age and death - sort of training the spirit and body so that when the really bad times come you might be better equipped. I'd never thought of that but it seems quite sensible, even though I'm rotten at it.

Thanks so much for your response on the dialect conversation. 'Shuggy baby' is so funny! The words go together splendidly! It makes me think about that wonderful book 'Avacado Baby' which always makes me laugh anyway; now it's doubly funny. 'Dinger' is brilliant; really descriptive. I'll be using that one quite a bit!

MOnica, you're in a very select group of authors and artists from generations ago to the present day who've written and spoken variations on your theme!

J.B. Priestley in 'Summer Day's Dream' wrote 'Man is a god-worshipping creature, and if he doesn't choose to worship a mysterious power of goodness and love, then he'll find something else - & something much worse - to adore.'

I think you're absolutely right, as well as many others who've commented. Fads of all sorts, from all sources, are becoming the new religion. I find it shrill, bossy, & usually half-baked (though perhaps the last is handy if one's fasting).

Lots of the points that have been made are connected, I think.

An age drowning in excess & media brainwashing. The lightning speed at which so many of society's underpinnings have vanished & keep vanishing: moral boundaries, values, traditions, religion ... almost everything that gives people a sense of stability and community suddenly (on the whole) isn't there. It's happened dangerously quickly, in historical terms.

No wonder people feel the need for new props. A bit dicey when the props haven't been tested by time & are largely composed of ways to make people feel bad about themselves so they'll spend money!

There are scientific aspects such as wanting to be part of a group for safety/survival, the weaker sensing that others are stronger & thus being willing to be led, etc. Personally I think that what seems to be a very deep-rooted sense of ceremony in mankind points to something religious in us. But that's just me; I don't have a problem with other thoughts.

What I have a problem with are the seven-league bossyboots who seem to want to pound everyone into believing what they believe while refusing to even entertain the notion that they might be inflexible, intolerant, and tyrannical little gits.

'Live and let live' was such a good idea ...!

Some monstrous concept of 'usefulness in society' - dystopian, Orwellian, all sorts of -ians - is 'frittin the guts out of me' as my Battersea cousins used to say. I may be a few fa-la's short of a madrigal, but it seems dangerously intertwined with all that's been discussed here.

I'm so glad you brought this up, MO, and that everyone shared such interesting ideas. Made me realize I should plug into inter-net land more often (and do something other than watch Adam Ant videos and Basil Brush on youtube when I do!)

As a catholic i observe fast days. As far as dry January or stoptober goes its complete nonsense as it does your health no good if you return to a “toxic” regime at the end of the month!

That is what many people are looking for when they do all these strange detoxes and adopt 'clean' eating.

Looks like voluntary deprivation is programmed in.

A religious fast is a reminder to be detached from material things
isn't it supposed to improve clarity of thinking so that those who fast can meditate with clearer minds?

The interesting thing is the way so many people feel they should respond to these secular gurus, in the same way that in those with religious beliefs will follow the fasting and abstinence rules within their religion.

We aren't allowed to sit down nowadays either....
The health and wellbeing police are replacing the health and safety police. Partly the tone in which these journalists write, and I'd certainly call much of it hectoring.

I practise 5:2 fasting and keep active by practising karate and walking my dog. Weight loss has never been the driving force although it has occurred incidentally through fasting. Our genetics are not the only factor that influences our health and longevity. If we smoke, drink to excess, lead a sedentary lifestyle and/or eat ourselves into type two diabetes, we can kiss goodbye to any genetic advantage we may have started out with.

On my two fasting days I'm hungry but it doesn't make me feel superior to anyone, nor do I do it for pseudo spiritual reasons. I do it to help save myself from the age related conditions that made my mother's quality of life so poor in her later years. She smoked, was sedentary and overweight. She developed heart disease, type 2 diabetes, diverticular disease and dementia, all of which are risks related to her chosen lifestyle. We know better nowadays and can take steps to look after our health. I've chosen 5:2 fasting since evidence shows proven advantages. Seems like common sense to me.

A religious fast is a reminder to be detached from material things ( not to eschew them but to keep a balance) it can also be a time for reflection on the life of the Prophet/ Founder as they inevitably seem to have suffered persecution and hardship. Fasting can also be a reminder that a person is more than a body that enjoys food and drink, but also a soul that needs spiritual food.
Christian Lent is tied to Easter and I think it is a coincidence that it times with spring in the Northern Hemisphere. The Moslem dawn to dusk fast moves round the year because they have a lunar calendar. It must create great hardship and difficulties in countries where the days can be very long. I think Mormons have a 24 hour fast once a week which seems in line with current medical advice. Baha’is (began in 19th century) fast for 19 days in March between sunrise to sunset and the timing makes the length of the day as close to 12 hours and as equal as possible around world, with those living in extreme latitudes being told to fast for 12 hours only. There are also exemptions for the young and old, those who are pregnant, sick, travelling, whose jobs involve physical labour, etc. As a Bahai I fasted for over 40 years but having passed 70 am no longer expected to, however I still sometimes get up before dawn to enjoy the tranquillity, and hear and watch the birds start their day. It is a special time that has a ‘spiritual’ feel to it and I naturally feel drawn to prayer.

I don't give up any food for Lent, I do take an extra hour to spend in prayer and meditation and attend a bible study Lent group, can't attend this year but I think there is one on line I will hunt out. I also try to stop saying sod it but always fail that one

I must be one of many who will remember what a 'ration book' looked like and how it was used. Who needed to fast or restrict ones intake due to lack of funds..It was forced upon us.It something I will never forget and how even long after we were able to go and buy any manner of food we wanted my mother through out her 91 years could ' always come up with something from nothing'.
This remains with me today and cringe when I observe
on tv the amount food retailers throw out. How obesity 21C is on the increase even in young children.Then fasting for whatever reason at certain times cannot be a bad thing but will it solve what is now a major problem.?
We are living longer. 80,.90, and 100 plus year olds.Have there ever been so many still alive in these categories.
Are they not those who had no options but ' eat to live not live to eat'.
They have their age related problems which modern medicine can address but how did they get there in the first place?

Like MOnica I gave up sugar for Lent YEARS ago and havent used it since in tea or coffee. As for dieting,dont do this dont do that, unless it is for health reasons, it is all in the genes, you cant decide how long you are going to live for and try to help. As was recently said of a certain American President " he has got very good genes" we may have him around for a long time!

Last year my granddaughter age 7 gave up her favourite meal, fish and chips, for lent. This was served at school once a week and she stuck to it until easter. I dont know where this came from but perhaps somethimg she heard at school. I was, and am, very proud of her.

MOnica, like you I think that people need something spiritual in their lives. + they love to follow the trends. Don't forget the toxic effect and influence of electronic media, FBetc. It seems that one has not only to keep up with the Joneses, but be better, starve more, pay more for one's avocado or whatever than the Joneses!

Isn't it a shame that the younger generations feel such a need, rather than be themselves and do whatever they want?

I am a catholic and was brought up to observe Lent, which is why I haven't had sugar in tea or coffee since I was about 12.

Compared with 50 or 60 years ago, we do have more possessions and money to indulge ourselves, but a world with today's indulgences was beyond our imagination and my childhood was unimaginably better than 2 of my grandparents who had grown up in close to extreme poverty.

What I remember from childhood is a general belief in self-discipline, of not being greedy, which again fits in with fasting, in the past as now, if you consume your stock of anything too fast, it will not be their to support you when times are hard.

Interesting post which made me think that you may be right and I considered us there any connection to my observation in my work - that people take less responsibility for their actions, it is always someone else’s fault/responsibility. Also, is this maybe a sign of our relatively affluent society. I’m pretty sure my parents and grandparents had little enough money or access to many of today’s excesses. Also, much more walking and general physical activity meant less need to diet and exercise. Fags, however, were smoked with relish but were less heavily taxed and cheaper in real terms than today. Definitely a good thing to cut down or give up imo.