Sandi Toksvaig on humanism

Apologies Luckygirl. I wasn’t implying you suggested people of faith are delusional. My message was bringing to light that there are many people who after hearing a genuine story about a spiritual experience,such as the Bernadette vision,think this couldn’t be possible so they must be either delusional or making it up. It was a general statement,not aimed at you personally. I used to be a regular church attender then when our wonderful minister died and we moved to another area,I just didn’t and haven’t found a church I want to attend. Perhaps one day but meantime I don’t think going to church makes you a better Christian,although I got a lot out of it for the many years I did attend.

Well - here we are - supposing I am god (a bit of a stretch I know!) and I have created several universes and put some people on one (or maybe all) of the planets. What shall I do? Just stand back and leave these folk to it. Wait a couple of millennia and then drop in to one small place picked at random and say "You have got this all wrong chaps, this is what it is all about."

By this time there are several religions already that have been borne of people's struggle to understand what life is all about, so a source of conflict is set up. Oops - so maybe I left it a bit late to clarify things. Hey-ho - they will have to fight it out I guess. I have picked one human upon whom they can vent their spleen and as predicted they kill him.

Subsequently my message is picked up by lots of people and interpreted in many many different ways. And they start killing each other too; forcing people to believe at knife point; visiting other nations and quelling their religions by force; forcing belief by fear of hell; instilling guilt in their followers. And the message has got seriously twisted - I suggested that loving and caring mattered above all else, but they seem to have got the idea that wealth and pomp and ceremony and posh buildings are what it is about.

Hmm - this is a bit of a mess. What shall I do? I know, I will just leave them to it. If they happen to get the message and interpret it correctly that is great, but otherwise I will do nothing.

That is what I meant by being opaque. Why would a god do this??

Sorry you posted as I was replying. I didn’t put words into your mouth , I only said how I took your words. Are you saying there should be obvious proof ? What proof do you want?

But you said ‘ any God would have made its presence know globally ‘ Luckgirl , as there are Christians all around the world it seems he did

This is what I actually said: "I have enormous respect for those who have a faith of some sort; I simply do not share it."

My comment that any god who wished to be clear and helpful would not leave people to try and find out for themselves whether it exists and what the implications of that are. I did not say that god should "force" people to believe.

Please do not put words into my mouth - there are plenty there already!

I am in no way suggesting that people with a faith are "delusional." Neither do I think that any god should "force people to believe."

I have used none of those words nor even implied that!

Luckygirl you are forgetting ‘freedom of choice* some choose different faiths, some choose no faith.

You think God should force people to believe in him, he sent his son, to believe this is our choice.

Lucky girl, there people in life due to spiritual experiences have no choice but to believe and have faith in a higher power. People say to see is to believe. Perhaps we should consider the fact that those who have had such an ‘experience’ are not always delusional or making it up.

77% Humanist

Just thought I'd mention that although this is an old thread, the Humanist course starts again on 7 January 2019. It's free and takes approx 3 hours per week for 6 weeks.

The Christian church (like all churches) is full of a variety of people, some good, some bad. That is to be expected. I have enormous respect for those who have a faith of some sort; I simply do not share it.

But the principle of eschewing rich trappings seems to me to be central to Christian belief, but it does not happen in many branches of that faith. I think that is fundamentally wrong.

I would describe myself as a "don't know" and would go even further than that to say there is no way that I or anyone else can know whether a god exists and what the implications of that are in terms of behaviour. Knowledge does not come into it with religion - it is about belief - you either believe or you don't. Why some some do and others don't......who knows?

I am happy to embrace the "not knowing" as the human condition and I just get on with it.

I will say however that if the existence of god were clear and unequivocal (and the implications for behaviour) then there would simply be one religion, as any god wanting to be at all helpful would have made its presence known globally and very clearly indeed. All this groping around for knowledge, taking different forms all over the world, would be unnecessary. It does seem somewhat obtuse of any such a being to be so opaque.

I should have said I have only come across one who was bigoted.

I agree mumofmadboys

I have also, in all the years I have encountered members of the clergy (some in the family), 'come across' one who was bigoted.

Haven't done the quiz yet, I suspect I will come out as humanist -the only problem being there are some people I really can't stand!!

Agree mumofmadboys it suits atheists to say it.

Paddyann your view of church finances is woefully incorrect

The fundamentals of all world faiths and none are more or less the same. Some churches however, have accreted layers of customs/habit/ritual that are completely man made and often related to the acquisition of wealth and power. No church should be wealthy while people struggle to make ends meet.

I should have said The Gospels, not scripture sorry

I think that all Christians pick the bits they want to believe from the bible; it would be worrying if they did not - there is some dangerous stuff in there! I have never yet met a Christian who believed every word; or who does not interpret the writings in their own way. That is not a criticism by the way; it is a necessity.

Luckygirl only you can decide if you ‘have the wrong end of the stick*. You are picking bits from scripture which suit your beliefs, this is your choice . The central message is far more than you say.

By the way, I did this course on humanism and it was interesting but not world-shattering.

Didn't Jesus say that buildings and things weren't important? That wherever people gather in his name was the church. I have been propounding this principle on another thread. This is very hard for Christians to embrace because it means letting go of the trappings that they hold dear. I do understand why this might be, but it is a long way from the central message that I take away from the bible. No doubt I have got hold of the wrong end of the stick.

Heavens, I am a humanist! Must look up what that means......

90% humanist. That’s OK. Not sure I’d like to be 100% anything.

70% humanist. If my DC are to be believed the other 30% is witch.