Sandi Toksvaig on humanism

77% Humanist

Lucky girl, there people in life due to spiritual experiences have no choice but to believe and have faith in a higher power. People say to see is to believe. Perhaps we should consider the fact that those who have had such an ‘experience’ are not always delusional or making it up.

Luckygirl you are forgetting ‘freedom of choice* some choose different faiths, some choose no faith.

You think God should force people to believe in him, he sent his son, to believe this is our choice.

I am in no way suggesting that people with a faith are "delusional." Neither do I think that any god should "force people to believe."

I have used none of those words nor even implied that!

This is what I actually said: "I have enormous respect for those who have a faith of some sort; I simply do not share it."

My comment that any god who wished to be clear and helpful would not leave people to try and find out for themselves whether it exists and what the implications of that are. I did not say that god should "force" people to believe.

Please do not put words into my mouth - there are plenty there already!

But you said ‘ any God would have made its presence know globally ‘ Luckgirl , as there are Christians all around the world it seems he did

Sorry you posted as I was replying. I didn’t put words into your mouth , I only said how I took your words. Are you saying there should be obvious proof ? What proof do you want?

Well - here we are - supposing I am god (a bit of a stretch I know!) and I have created several universes and put some people on one (or maybe all) of the planets. What shall I do? Just stand back and leave these folk to it. Wait a couple of millennia and then drop in to one small place picked at random and say "You have got this all wrong chaps, this is what it is all about."

By this time there are several religions already that have been borne of people's struggle to understand what life is all about, so a source of conflict is set up. Oops - so maybe I left it a bit late to clarify things. Hey-ho - they will have to fight it out I guess. I have picked one human upon whom they can vent their spleen and as predicted they kill him.

Subsequently my message is picked up by lots of people and interpreted in many many different ways. And they start killing each other too; forcing people to believe at knife point; visiting other nations and quelling their religions by force; forcing belief by fear of hell; instilling guilt in their followers. And the message has got seriously twisted - I suggested that loving and caring mattered above all else, but they seem to have got the idea that wealth and pomp and ceremony and posh buildings are what it is about.

Hmm - this is a bit of a mess. What shall I do? I know, I will just leave them to it. If they happen to get the message and interpret it correctly that is great, but otherwise I will do nothing.

That is what I meant by being opaque. Why would a god do this??

Apologies Luckygirl. I wasn’t implying you suggested people of faith are delusional. My message was bringing to light that there are many people who after hearing a genuine story about a spiritual experience,such as the Bernadette vision,think this couldn’t be possible so they must be either delusional or making it up. It was a general statement,not aimed at you personally. I used to be a regular church attender then when our wonderful minister died and we moved to another area,I just didn’t and haven’t found a church I want to attend. Perhaps one day but meantime I don’t think going to church makes you a better Christian,although I got a lot out of it for the many years I did attend.

Either we accept freedom of choice or we don’t , Luckygirl I feel sad that you concentrate on buildings so much, I have visited many churches in this country ,posh!

You think only of the Vatican ? Or a nunnery which is large but now only houses a small number of women. All around this country are churches who do much for the community and for the stranger at the gate. Sorry if I am mistaken but you want all people to live as you think they should, this isn’t going happen sorry. We all have freedom of choice , we find our own way . You speak often of the centre of Christ’s teachings, for me this is like saying one commandment is of more importance than the other nine.

That’s some understanding of it luckygirl and well thought out. The trouble with this interpretation is the fact it’s missing one very important aspect. God is not a person who decides how the human race should live their lives. God is not a person who intervenes and either causes, nor has the capacity to prevent natural disasters,or mans inhumanity to man. God is simply love. A higher power than we could ever comprehend. When love is at the heart of everything in life, this is where we will find God. I’m preaching now so I’ll Stop at that & hope in some way it helps you to have a better understanding of people of faith. It’s simple really.

I'll go with the Love idea - sounds good to me.

Unfortunately the religion borne of this Love has done some very unloving things!!!

So true Luckygirl. People have freedom of choice and I suppose we need to accept how people wish to worship (call it religion) & it’s a choice. As long as individually we make the right choices with God (love) at the heart of our choices the world will be a better place,accepting of each other’s ways without trying to change people. At the heart of it all is God and this is a divine love which is extended to all.

100% humanist ( according to quiz)

Quiz tells me I am 100% humanist......yet another pigeonhole

Granny28 I don't think anyone has labelled any individual as anything, just as if one says or reads, 'Catholics believe...'
doesn't assume the reader to be Catholic.

You are what you claim or choose and I am definitely intelligent enough to work that out - so I've signed up to learn more on this course.

Doesn't mean I'll become a Humanist.

Through Future Learn I've taken courses in Forensic Science, Ballistics, Archaeology and History - and strange as it may seem, didn't become any of those things, nor label myself that way.

I think love for other humans is quite possible without a god figure entering into it at all.

I agree Lazigirl

What is a humanist apart from someone who grew up a christian and has just grown out of it.

Putting fancy labels on it just is not necessary and I won't be following a course about it. I find the these courses sometimes rather boring and fail to see what there is to learn about humanism as it is just common sense, for those who no longer believe in God and don’t practice any other religion.

I imagine there are Humanists who never believed in / always doubted the existence of a God / higher being? ( Rather than for those who no longer believe in God

I have noticed some humanists who care deeply about those in need vilify Christians and don’t give a thought to the hurt they cause.

I am sorry to hear that you feel your faith is vilified. I think it is important that all faiths are respected; but also that, where the influence of a faith has resulted in bad things, this should also be open to discussion.

I am wary of all labels: religious, political, social. Humans are complex beings and labels are just too simplistic.

I respect people of all faiths and no faith.

Anniebach 6th January 9:20:34
That is a very interesting observation.
Metaphorically throwing Christians to the lions has become quite a pastime.

Would posters do that for people of other faiths?

No they wouldn’t Jalima , Christians are easy prey on this forum , ‘ lets attack Christians because of the Crusades or the wealth in the Vatican , and as for Christian churches , pull em down. God help anyone who says ‘I need my church’.