The Pope

I was referring to multi cases of abuse not saying abuse never happen in those churches, no different to it happening in schools , doctors surgeries etc. I thought my post made that clear, obviously not.

And let's not forget the crystal Methodist - Flowers I think his name was.

The Angclican Church and the RC Church, there are other denominations in the Christian Church, Baptist, Pentcostal, Methodist, Salvation Army, I think possibly why we haven’t heard of abuse in these churches is the fact women are very much to the fore, when I was a child in the fifties and attending a Baptist Church, the minister was always male but there was ‘the big seat’ where the Deacons sat , my grandmother ,died before I was born , was a Deacon, her sister was when I was a member, women ran Band of Hope, prayer meetings etc. Women have always been prominent in the Salvation Army The Anglican and RC Churches were dominated by men, the most women could do was play the organ and arrange flowers. Does this in anyway explain a possible reason why?

I find it astounding that someone like JRM can say he's against contraception, or that he's never changed a nappy. This is 2018 or had he forgotten or indeed always lived in some kind of alternative universe.
Pope Francis does seem to be a genuine man of faith. The attacks on him appear to come from more traditional elements within the Vatican. Who knows?
What we do know, without doubt, is that the two main Christian churches in the UK have both covered up abuse, both dismissed allegations, both supported men who have subsequently been confirmed to have sexually abused children or other very vulnerable individuals.
Without wishing to in any way minimise the horrors perpetrated by priests, vicars and other so called men of god, we have to acknowledge the bravery of the people who have now talked of their experience. It follows we must acknowledge the changes in society, in the police, the Church and other agencies that created an atmosphere in which it became possible for allegations to be made.
There are other faiths in which this hasn't yet taken place.

Bridgeit, I so hope the same. I think things will move slowly, contraception is used by millions of RC’s, just because JRM has said he is against it doesn’t mean all members of this church think the same.

The sadness for me is that so many good people have had their lives blighted by the shocking strictures & interpretations of God’s word,by mere mortals who themselves are behaving in a very ungodly fashion. Let’s not forget that Jesus was sent by God to change this.
The current Pope does appear to be more in tune with this & the reality of some people’s lives, let’s hope he will instigate more compassionate changes within the RCC.

No one can change the past. Sex does mean creating a new life unless infertility probems, it is contraception which prevents a new life.

I think he will change what he can but it is not a one man band , same as any government

TBH I have no time for the pope. He presides over a church that over the centuries has hoarded wealth, instilled guilt, created institutions that with inbuilt cruelty, and now we know it has covered up sexual abuse. He will not change all that either for the past or the future.

No institution that denies normal sexuality to its clergy and decrees that all sexual acts should be capable of creating a new life is likely to be healthy.

Sorry, my earlier post I meant to say the prevailing view within the church establishment, not the views on this thread.

Varian, SIL is not religous at all in fact did not do his childhood confirmation, that descision was left to his adoptive parents no pressure from the Jesuits in any way.

I have always found many atheists to be judgemental of people of faith and have a need to declare they are as caring of their fellow man as those of faith but not heard the reverse.

Bringing up children in a faith can add to their life experience, providing it isn't oppressive. It's damaging when it's cold, critical and rejecting of any other ideology.

My children went to a CofE high school in our neighbourhood. All the children studied religion to GCSE, which included the study of all the major faiths. They were taught to respect other faiths and to question their own. As parents themselves now, they remain part of a large friendship group that began in school. Some of them continue the tradition of christenings, Church and sending their children to the schools they attended, others don't.The 'indoctrination' they received to respect others and to live a decent life seems to be serving them well.
A new family member has a Muslim background, she's a very welcome addition. The two families get on well. That's surely how life should be.
I find some comments about those of us with some kind of faith unnecessarily judgemental.
I remain of the belief that mystical, magical, closed institutions (including families) provide a good place for abusers to lurk, to hide their true nature. It's for all of us to be vigilant and aware that they look like us, act as we do and unfortunately, don't have two horns and a tail to warn us.

I don’t know what it’s like where you live Varian, but in Norfolk, at primary level it can be quite difficult to find a village school which is not CoE state aided. My own children attended the community local primary school which happened to be Catholic so I can say that church schools do cover other beliefs and teach understanding of them, while the state school they later attended did not.

This thread was enough of a trainwreck when the Catholics posting were having their own experiences in the Church dismissed, but being instructed in the theology and doctrine of their own faith is frankly disrespectful.

I avoid the threads on faith as a rule, but this one is actually quite personally upsetting and I regret having followed it over the last several days. I would urge everyone involved to respect the experiences and the faith teachings of others, and to engage as people of good intention with one another.

I respectfully post this only in the hope of urging restraint before the discussion devolves any further.

The fact that you as a Christian brought up your children in a Christian home is entirely as expected Annie

I have no problem with that but I hope they were educated in secular schools where they were taught about other beliefs and understood that they were free to make their own choices in matfers of faith.

Varian you said ‘ it is difficult to see how the influence of a religious family could be curtailed ‘ I have accepted critism from atheists on this forum with understanding and I hope respect but your critism of me as mother is a step too far. I say criticism of me because my daughters were brought up in a Christian home .

No more to say to you on this,

Millions of parents will explain their faith to their children, and some of them may present it as incontrovertable fact. There is nothing that can be done about that. The home and family are the most important factors in a child's up-bringing.

However it is quite wrong for the state to be complicit in indoctrinating children in any religion and to use tax-payers money to do so.

Children should grow up to be aware that although their parents may have a faith, it is for them to decide, as adults what they chose to believe.

You have accused millions of parents of forcing a faith on their children, of brainwashing them , that is offensive

I have no problem with faith Annie.

Adults can believe what they like but I do not like the labelling or indoctrination of children. Children should be respected as their own people and given the information to decide for themselves what they chose to believe.

You really have a problem with faith varian , but for you to choose to deliberately misquote to try to prove something makes me now realise how stupid I have been

This is not an "innocent comment" - it is a manifesto.

And the Jesuits said ‘ give me a child untill he is seven and I will give you the man’

I am surprised varian that you take an innocent comment and make it so disgusting just because you have no faith please do not use any weapon to attack faith

Varian, what do you suggest Christian parents do? When they go to church tell their children they are going for a walk or to a pub? Eat meals separately from their children so they can share grace but the children not be subjected to such horror. Ban all Christian friends from mentioning they have been to or are going to the blessing of the Crib or the annual blessing of animals ?

I think it is relevant and quite shocking that many children are indoctrinated from an early age. The Jesuits said "give me a child until he is seven and we have him for life"

Perhaps seven year olds and children under seven should be protected from indoctrination. To me it is abhorent that a small child should be labelled a "Cathiolic child" or a "Muslim child"

It is difficult to see how the influence of a religious family could be curtailed, but at least we should prevent schools from indoctrinating young children. Certainly state-funded schools should all be secular and comparative religion should be taught so that children understand that some people believe in different religions and some are agnostics or atheists.

When they are old enough to understand these different philosophies they may be able to weigh up what they have been taught at home and at school and decide for themselves.

humptydumpty, I haven't seen anyone suggesting religions are favoured by God and can't really be guilty of anything and should be helped rather than punished.
The opposite in fact. My experience on Gransnet and in RL is that if anything people feel even more strongly that Vicars, Nuns, Priests etc. who abuse power, exploit/sexually/psychologically/physically abuse children deserve even harsher punishment than your run of the mill Paedophile (no offence intended)
anyone who has worked with survivors/victims of sexual abuse by vicars / priests will tell you that kind of abuse is particularly invidious. It usually involved youngsters like alter/choir boys or girls in faith groups. These youngsters have been brought up to believe in Jesus, in the miracles, the virgin birth and so on, rather than to believe in God but question how miracles occur. they're steeped in the magic and mystery of it all, little wonder they rarely speak out about the abuse experience until they're adults.
there we are again, hinting at why people don't speak out immediately