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Divine retribution and unconditional love. Can only one attribute be real?

(15 Posts)
Gnostic Sat 12-Oct-19 19:47:00

Divine retribution and unconditional love. Can only one attribute be real?

In the beginning, before creation, we are told, there was only Yahweh.

Yahweh, perfect in all attributes, then created a perfect universe, even though scriptures only call creation good, thanks to lack of faith or understanding of reality.

We are told that god loves all he created unconditionally, including us.

We are also told that the vast majority of us will end in the purposeless tortures of hell and death.

That is divine retribution from god against those who we think imperfect sinners.

A god who loves all of creation unconditionally, due to being created perfect, as a perfect god would create, would not torture and kill his perfect souls.

Either there is no divine retribution, or there is no unconditional love. Unconditional love would overshadow ant divine retribution.

Divine retribution and unconditional love cannot both exist together in god, unless unconditional love can torture and kill what it loves, which is counter intuitive.

Can you solve this little conundrum?


Bridgeit Sat 12-Oct-19 20:10:55

This is why according to religious belief & the Bible, God decide he would send his only son Jesus to show us another way , the way of love & kindness etc etc, in order to convince us that he was sincere, he decide that his only Son ( Jesus ) should be crucified . 🤔

MawB Sat 12-Oct-19 21:07:04

Oh Gnostic what are you trying to prove?
On your other thread you describe yourself as a non- believer so how can you believe in divine anything?
Your “all or nothing” argument simply begs to be demolished , sadly I CBA .

Urmstongran Sat 12-Oct-19 21:20:02

Gnostic for a non believer (like me) you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time contemplating spirituality. I do have to wonder why this is.

Have you tried jigsaw puzzles?

Anniebach Sat 12-Oct-19 21:22:24

I advise you meditate on it Gnostic.

humptydumpty Sat 12-Oct-19 21:25:09

Pity to see that no poster so far has answered the OP's question.

Urmstongran Sat 12-Oct-19 21:39:34

Perhaps you would like to engage humpty?

MawB Sat 12-Oct-19 21:53:02

I have just seen that the other thread has been deleted- phew! Not before time. In it Gnostic spoke of his/her apotheosis
apotheosis definition
the elevation of someone to divine status
Puh -leaze Who is kidding whom?
If this thread goes the same way, I for one won’t be sorry. .

Doodledog Sat 12-Oct-19 22:59:26

Is someone writing a dissertation for a Theology degree?

I can't comment on this sort of thing as any answer is just a matter of faith, which passeth all understanding and all that.

I read some of the other thread, and couldn't make head or tail of a lot of it. Why was it deleted, or is saying so against the rules?

paddyann Sat 12-Oct-19 23:50:51

I dont believe in god..any god .I do believe in unconditional love .the kind a parent has for a child or I have for my husband .If you find proof of a god let me know .This blind faith thing doesn't work for me .

Doodledog Sat 12-Oct-19 23:56:51

No, me neither; but anyone answering questions like this must presumably do so from a position of faith, otherwise all you (one) can say is 'I don't believe', which is a bit pointless, really.

Which is why, (IMO) there is going to be little mileage for threads like these on a general forum such as Gransnet. Better to post them on a Bible Study forum, or similar.

Eloethan Sun 13-Oct-19 00:57:26

If you can't be arsed Mawbroon why say anything at all on this thread?

I think Gnostic raised an interesting point. The wish for retribution whilst at the same time claiming love does seem to be a contradiction.

I have very little respect for organised religions since the vast majority of mainstream religions are male centred and male dominated and are discriminatory towards women. In the past (and currently) these religions have targeted people whom they deem to be sinful and unworthy, and have caused them great fear and suffering.

However, I do think the values of of Jesus, who I think is likely to have been a real person, are the sort of values which would lead to a much kinder and more peaceful world. Sadly, some people who describe themselves as Christians lack the self-awareness to recognise their own weaknesses. They instead continue to sermonise and pass judgment on others.

MawB Sun 13-Oct-19 04:46:30

I CBA Eloethan because this is a spurious and invented “conundrum” which does not stand up under scrutiny.
OP claims to be a non- believer but bases their theory of the mutual exclusivity of unconditional love and “divine retribution” on the premise of the existence of a God.
It is not a valid question, indeed it might be seen as a vexatious one.
OP claims we are told X, Y and Z, citing vastly outdated tenets of belief ( the purposeless tortures of hell and death )which I find unsustainable, so it is not the “problem” that I CBA to address, but the question as formulated.
Added to which I find OP’s claim of “apotheosis” profoundly suspect both in expression and motive.

Peonyrose Sun 13-Oct-19 05:08:54

If you were one if the displaced in Syria or Turkey or anywhere else for that matter. If you hadn't a home or couldn't feed your family, lots of here can't. How would you look at the answers you seek. People do not deserve it anymore more than I deserve to lead the privalidged life I lead. We should all do what we can to be the best we can, we will fall by the wayside now and then, that is being human, we are not perfect. If there is anything else that's good, if not you would have made your life and those you could help a nicer place. Even if not a true believer in Creation the teachings that Jesus bought to us are good rules for living. Live the life you have here the future will take care of itself.

Smileless2012 Sun 13-Oct-19 13:10:30

I agree MawB.