Religeous intolerance

*SusieWoozie’
The trouble with posting is that unless you write an essay then one doesn’t always get it right.
I should have gone into it in more detail.
The school has done what it can in removing the teacher from the arena. That will be a first step. Considering the furore it would have been difficult for the person to stay in situ.
Now an enquiry will begin to establish the whys and wherefore of the situation.
I would have thought that if the teacher was teaching religion he/she should have known that images of the prophet were sacrilege to the Muslims so something has gone wrong somewhere and it needs to be discovered where.
The school has apologised to it’s Muslim community, I presume, to calm the community down whilst the investigation progresses. I can’t see what else could have been done but it doesn’t seem to have appeased them at all.
Perhaps you have the answer? I don’t.

Is every gathering of protesters- mob rule ?

I usually stay off the religious threads because my views on religion would be pretty offensive to many on here. But this time I’ll make an exception.

I have no idea why Muslims get so offended by the cartoons in question, but they clearly do and anyone doing anything to inflame that offence needs their head examined.

The protesters are IMO completely over-reacting but anyone could have seen it coming and the purpose for showing these cartoons completely escapes me. If it was a discussion about blasphemy, did he have to show the thing that many of the pupils in his class would think was blasphemous? You and I might not find them offensive, but they clearly do, yet on he went. Whether or not he should be sacked remains to be seen, but I wouldn’t want someone with such a tenuous grasp of the impact of anti-religious imagery teaching children RE. (Actually I would prefer no-one was teaching RE, but that's a whole different discussion.)

The revolution will not start in a classroom in Batley. If we want to respect everyone’s views we have to have some give and take, and this is not how to do it.

( Hard hat on )

I think if we are at a situation where discussion of religion is curtailed then we should stop discussing all religion in schools. I would say we would need a complete separation of state from religion in that case. Not that that has worked particularly well in France. I have serious concerns about being unable to question religion it's very unhealthy. This applies to all religions, as a woman I find most religions beyond words to be honest.

I don’t have the answer Pamela but this isn’t it. What I think can be safely assumed is that extremists on both sides are now exploiting this fully. I don’t even know what the teacher was teaching in terms of the national curriculum. I’m not taking sides except the side of due process.

I’m old enough to remember the sights of white people shouting, spitting etc ( is that a mob?) at little children trying to enter newly desegregated schools in certain southern states. Should we have just said, oh it’s inflaming the white community, we’d best stop desegregation.? I know that’s not a perfect comparison but hopefully you get my drift.

The teacher was incredibly stupid, but this sort of knee jerk mob reaction by parents at the gates of a school has happened before in response to some aspect or other of the national curriculum that has been seen as unacceptable to ethnic minority parents. We have let ourselves come too far down the road to restore the situation now to any kind of tolerance and common sense. I note that in the French incident, the teacher had said that his Muslim pupils might like to close their eyes before he showed the images purported to be of the prophet. If the teacher here had done that he would no doubt have been staring at a whole classroom with their eye closed! I expect the head teacher spends his days walking on eggshells, but he wants his a**e kicking for not supporting a member of his staff.

Galaxy

I think if we are at a situation where discussion of religion is curtailed then we should stop discussing all religion in schools. I would say we would need a complete separation of state from religion in that case. Not that that has worked particularly well in France. I have serious concerns about being unable to question religion it's very unhealthy. This applies to all religions, as a woman I find most religions beyond words to be honest.

The problem is, isn’t it, that how can children be given a full education without addressing issues that are fundamental to so many religions. I want all children ( boys and girls) to be given the tools to question issues of equality around sex, sexual orientation, racism, ableism and so on and how you do that without mentioning religious and cultural beliefs is beyond me. If we start by giving religions a special status and exempting it, where do we then go? This is about extremism not Islam per se and all extremists hate the very idea of freedom of speech or thought whatever they might pretend otherwise .

In my view, Religious Education has no place at all in any modern curriculum. You can talk about equality issues all you like but RE should just be left out. Unless we're going to be teaching Greek Myths and the stories of the Nordic gods as options for belief as well.

See, this is why I stay off the religious threads...

Alegrias1

In my view, Religious Education has no place at all in any modern curriculum. You can talk about equality issues all you like but RE should just be left out. Unless we're going to be teaching Greek Myths and the stories of the Nordic gods as options for belief as well.

See, this is why I stay off the religious threads...

But what was the context in which the issue was being covered? Yes I know, pesky facts.

We used to get Social Education in the Stone Age when I was at school. Or Modern Studies.

Giving religion its own subject in schools maintains its dubious claim to importance in a 21st Century educational context. My view, I know many will disagree.

Please GN authorities: amend the spelling of this thread's title from "religeous" to "religious". It offends my pedantic sensibilities.

I think I probably agree Alegrias. But I definitely think if constraints are to be put on discussion of religion then we should not allow any discussion of religion in classrooms as it isnt a discussion at all. I have a friend who has a family member who believes the earth is flat, when the child brought this up in a science lesson the teacher discussed the scientific reality. The family member was furious.

Galaxy

I think I probably agree Alegrias. But I definitely think if constraints are to be put on discussion of religion then we should not allow any discussion of religion in classrooms as it isnt a discussion at all. I have a friend who has a family member who believes the earth is flat, when the child brought this up in a science lesson the teacher discussed the scientific reality. The family member was furious.

But I think it’s more complex than this. What about the children’s books depiction assume sex family group ? This became an issue and we saw the same scenes outside of schools. It’s a religious issue as to its acceptability.

Assume = same sex obvs

Parents of pupils have a perfect right to question the content of any lesson by making a complaint to the Headteacher and asking for an investigation.
For self appointed representatives of a community to organise a protest outside a school is totally unacceptable, and for it to necessitate the teacher and his family receiving police protection is shameful.
The Headteacher should not have made his public apology until after the lesson, its content, and its relation to the RE curriculum had been fully investigated. I am not sure that the teacher should even have been suspended, unless it was for his own protection. The Head's conduct as well as that of the teacher needs investigation, as does that of the community 'leaders'.

I can see the issue you are bringing up about same sex families etc. Suzie If schools want to discuss facts and the accepted norms of today's society, as part of science or any other lesson, and parents or children object to that because of their religion, then the school should not allow religious prejudices and anti-science to prevent the discussion.

But, if a school or one of its employees goes out of their way to do something that is inherently inflammatory to a particular religion or belief system, as a way of discussing the differences between religions, that is over-stepping the mark.

If these parents had been protesting against having depictions of same sex families in school books, for instance, then the headmaster would not have supported their complaint, I expect.

Galaxy I wouldn't have any discussion of religion is the classroom. But you probably guessed that

I'm all for teaching Greek myths at school. They're fabulous.

No idea which cartoon this teacher posted. I'm not on the side of the baying mob but why show this cartoon? Is it an integral part of the curriculum?

As for parents who caused such a fuss for same sex parents in books. Just ignorant.

Alegrias1

I can see the issue you are bringing up about same sex families etc. Suzie If schools want to discuss facts and the accepted norms of today's society, as part of science or any other lesson, and parents or children object to that because of their religion, then the school should not allow religious prejudices and anti-science to prevent the discussion.

But, if a school or one of its employees goes out of their way to do something that is inherently inflammatory to a particular religion or belief system, as a way of discussing the differences between religions, that is over-stepping the mark.

If these parents had been protesting against having depictions of same sex families in school books, for instance, then the headmaster would not have supported their complaint, I expect.

Galaxy I wouldn't have any discussion of religion is the classroom. But you probably guessed that

But I honestly don’t think you can divide issues up as neatly as that. What about discussions on the development of the rights of women in society for example? I also think you maybe overstating the behaviour of the teacher as ‘going out of the way’. I accept that amongst the Muslim community there are a hard core of fundamental extremist looking for something to be ‘offended’ at and if they win this one, then what?
As for how the same sex issue was dealt with a couple of years ago, I think some heads were hung out to dry - I’ll go and read up on it before I say more.

This looks like a reasonable summary with useful links

LGBT lessons: Schools told they can choose what to teach www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47870610

And who gets to decide that's the problem. So you have decided that books depicting same sex relationships are ok (which I agree with obviously) but that questioning a religion isnt. Giving anyone that power over speech is dangerous. Is it just schools? Is it ok for me to say I find the catholic teachings in relation to women laughable.

Galaxy

And who gets to decide that's the problem. So you have decided that books depicting same sex relationships are ok (which I agree with obviously) but that questioning a religion isnt. Giving anyone that power over speech is dangerous. Is it just schools? Is it ok for me to say I find the catholic teachings in relation to women laughable.

Exactly - who decides? Those who cause most trouble?

The teaching unions have been unusually quiet?

Just been watching a discussion about this on Jeremy Vine and apparently the lesson was about blasphemy so, although he no doubt regrets it now, he did, I believe, have a valid reason for showing the cartoon. I’ve seen the original cartoon ( I assume this is the same one) and it really is benign. I’ve also seen the crowd outside the school and they have, quite obviously, been ordered/instructed to attend by community leaders. It’s this that causes me concern. We must not tolerate any dictats handed down by any community. This is the UK and we must make sure we all live in a free and, above all, tolerant society.

Gwyneth

The teaching unions have been unusually quiet

Terrified of upsetting anyone. Eggshells and treading springs to mind!

^ We must not tolerate any dictats handed down by any community. This is the UK and we must make sure we all live in a free and, above all, tolerant society.^. As I said upthread, it’s too late to try and shove that one back in its box and keep the lid on, no matter what community is involved!