Christianity needs a resurrection according to 'intellectual atheism'

HolySox

Interesting essay. I like the problem of defining "All human life is precious". Being made in the image of God, then we all have equal value. But atheists, agnostics and humanists have no point of reference (i.e. God). How can they assert this?
Perhaps 'intellectual' are more important? Well maybe in today's society - but if civilisation breaks down (concern of this essay) will it not return to the biggest bully in the playground taking charge?

As an atheist, I would like to answer your first question HolySox. I believe all life is precious because people are generally like me, they want basically the same things I do, irrespective of where they are or where they come from. They feel and have emotions pretty much like mine, so I can empathise with them and their motivations, and know that they have equal value to me.

Civilisation is a long way from breaking down; compared with society in the past, we've never had it so good. The reliance on Christianity as a prop may not be as widespread as it was, but that doesn't mean civilisation is breaking down. As for the biggest bully in the playground, many of those bullies would call themselves Christian, and in fact they have.

Alegrias1 sounds a bit vague to me. You assume other people are like you. They're not. You seem a sensible, kind, thoughtful person. Met a lot of people who are scheming, selfish, manipulative, aggressive, greedy, etc.. But are people like that 'good' as that's just the way humans are 'made'.
I am right in thinking the humanist 'faith', 'religion', 'ideals' have been formulated by a group of 'self-elected' people? How do they justify this principles that they expect society to follow? Who's to say they're right or wrong ... of course they have to be 'right' because, with no point of reference, there is no 'wrong'.

I know other people are like me, and I value their lives because they are human, not because they exhibit traits that are just like mine. Are they "good" or not? I don't know. Probably their mother loves them. As an atheist, I do actually find it a bit scary that religious people think we should be nice to people because they are in the image of God, not just because they are people. I don't want to save them or change them.

I'm not a humanist, by the way. But I expect society to treat everyone with respect.

Thank you for what you said about me.

Your welcome. Apologies as your not a humanist.

For myself I grew up in a Christian environment ...I remember school assemblies having hymnes and prayers. When I was older I attended a Christian conference and the speaker talked about the issue of deciding right and wrong in a post modern world thst doexn't have a god. Shocked me to try and think what is right, what is wrong without the authority of God. Appreciate not all are believers but it was that reassurance our laws and culture had a root somewhere.
Actually in Romans Paul talks about people having "laws written on their hearts" so maybe there's hope for a non believing society. We all have a conscience. We'll see how things transpire...

I read the article with interest as the people quoted have spent a lot more time looking at these questions than I have.
I think we all, whatever our beliefs, have faith in something even if is ourselves and our own abilities.

To those who have felt angry reading the article I have noticed that for myself if I am reacting angrily to something it almost always means I have something to deal with.

I think that in the West we still live in a society so steeped in Christian values that we have no idea what it would be like without. The idea that all humans have value has come from the Judeo Christian culture and the huge influence it has had on the world.
There is plenty of evil in the world, just read the news. The trouble is, even if we want it to, society doesn’t always treat people with respect.
We need some principles to live by even if it is just to show us how woefully short of the mark we are.
So where do we get those principles from?
If they are made up by men who is to say they are correct, the article is saying that we need the ethics of Christianity in our society if the West is to survive. Well I think I would have to agree.

The fallacy that the valuing of our fellow humans comes from the Judeo Christian culture is short sighted and superficial; what about Hindu people, do they not value humans? Native Americans? The generations and generations of people before us who had never heard of JC but still buried their people and mourned their loss?

Principles do come from people - not men, that's quite a Judaeo-Christian view, I'd say - and I would rather have my principles derived from humanity rather that some supernatural law-giver, who can decide what laws suit them. That would indicate that as humans we are incapable of understanding the impact of our actions on others; we are not children who need somebody to tell us right from wrong, we've worked it out for ourselves.

Religious leaders can come across as extremely arrogant.

I was shocked to hear a CoE bishop saying that she couldn't understand why atheists and agnostics wanted to "ape" (sic) Christian marriages as marriage was a Christian rite.

I am pretty sure that marriage existed in many societies long before Christianity, and surprised that someone with enough education to become a bishop appeared not to know that.

Here is a link to a discussion that took place on Gransnet some years ago, and started with me posting part of an interview with the composer John Rutter. I find his stance very interesting, particularly where he highlights the dangers of fundamentalist belief, especially in America: www.gransnet.com/forums/religion_spirituality/1195448-John-Rutter-on-religion

To say that we would have little or no morality without the Judao-Christian heritage we share ignores the capacity of religions to act for evil as well as for good.

My OH died last year, and, when he was dying, he said to me: "What is the point of life if there is no god?" This from a man who was a lifelong atheist (apart from being a choir boy as a child). What could I say? I had to speak to the intelligent man that once was and simply said that I was very sorry and I did not know the answer. I often feel I failed him.

HolySox

Your welcome. Apologies as your not a humanist.

For myself I grew up in a Christian environment ...I remember school assemblies having hymnes and prayers. When I was older I attended a Christian conference and the speaker talked about the issue of deciding right and wrong in a post modern world thst doexn't have a god. Shocked me to try and think what is right, what is wrong without the authority of God. Appreciate not all are believers but it was that reassurance our laws and culture had a root somewhere.
Actually in Romans Paul talks about people having "laws written on their hearts" so maybe there's hope for a non believing society. We all have a conscience. We'll see how things transpire...

Good post.

Other apes, including chimps, have moral codes apparently. Perhaps it's not possible to make a successful society, whatever the social species involved, without an innate or evolved moral sense.

Sorry HolySox, I missed your post at 13:49. Very interesting view, thank you.

25Avalon

Very interesting. I studied religion as one of my topics at university. Logically you can neither prove or disprove the existence of God so the rational stance is to be agnostic. Otherwise it boils down to belief. He was brought up to believe there was no God rather than to believe there is one, so in that sense he has an atheist faith.

Logically I cannot disprove that there are little green men who live on the moon who are exceptionally good at hiding when we are looking for them. That doesn't mean it's a rational stance to be agnostic on the issue.

The expression "atheist faith " seems to be a contradiction in terms.

Religious people must have a faith because they choose to believe in things that cannot be proved.

Atheists have no faith. They just ask questions.

Petera logically you cannot prove there are little green men on the moon either. You cannot prove the existence of God. You cannot prove the non existence of God. You can believe or not believe but you cannot know. The only knowledge you can be certain of is that you don’t know.

I am certainly not saying Christianity is the only religion that espouses kindness to others or marriage or burying the dead. All religions and cultures have these things but there are some things which are taught by Christianity that are different.

These are;
That God loves us.
That God has given us a way of salvation from our wrong doing by Jesus coming to earth and dying on the cross. After He died he was resurrected and taken to heaven. In doing this He took the punishment for all the peoples sin.
That salvation is a free gift we don’t have to earn our way to heaven.
That we are forgiven.

Whether you believe the above or not this is a concept that has been part of Christian countries for nearly two thousand years, it has had a profound affect on the way westerners view the world.
No race or religion has a clean record on atrocity or arrogance including Christianity.
The argument has nothing to do with whether anyone believes in Jesus it is the influence that the concept of salvation has had on our mindsets.
I don’t think it is short sighted or superficial to think that Christianity has had a profound effect on western thought in those nearly two thousand years politically it had a lot of power until recently any influence from other religions would have been minor.
Whether we can prove the existence of God or not is not the issue, we are talking about the legacy of the millions who have believed over the centuries.
When I talked about the rules made by men in the above post I was thinking about mankind rather than men as in gender. I should have said people.
Like Holysox I find it reassuring that our laws and culture have a root somewhere.

Whether we like it or not, our culture, laws, political system and many of our institutions have grown out of the Judeo -Christian tradition and more especially the influence of Protestantism.

It is a grave mistake for any society to forget where it came from.

Maybe we have moved on. Maybe we don't need it anymore. But if we forget , denigrate or belittle our past we will, struggle to build a future where everyone is accepted for who they are.

25Avalon

Petera logically you cannot prove there are little green men on the moon either. You cannot prove the existence of God. You cannot prove the non existence of God. You can believe or not believe but you cannot know. The only knowledge you can be certain of is that you don’t know.

These ludicrous arguments about 'God' aside, there are many ways of proving the existence of entities, there are no ways of proving the nonexistence.

It's only in the case of 'God' that some people try to claim it's impossible to show that that something exists.

Petera whatever you do do not study Philosophy which is the basis of all subjects including science and sets out what knowledge is. I don’t mean this unkindly either. It will do your head in as it did mine.

Voltaire said if God did not exist it would be necessary to invent him.

Never having been there, I don't have personal experience that New Zealand is there but on the balance of probabilities, I think it is. My nephew has photos of his holiday there, so I'm going to go with that.

So, on Christianity, do I believe the billions who have believed in the past, or do I believe the billion or so Hindus alive today and all the billions that came before them? Or do I believe common sense and not try to invoke philosophy to justify something that isn't necessary in the world?

Never found it necessary to invoke philosophy in my study of science, but there you go. As above, anybody's free to do what they like. Unlike in a religious society, for instance.

25Avalon

Voltaire said if God did not exist it would be necessary to invent him.

And look - they did!

25Avalon

Petera whatever you do do not study Philosophy which is the basis of all subjects including science and sets out what knowledge is. I don’t mean this unkindly either. It will do your head in as it did mine.

Done that. And logic and metaphysics; which is why I understand and can make the statement above.

I have no problem with people believing in god. I do have a problem with people telling me that, because they believe in god, it's incumbent on me to prove them wrong.

Alegrias Philosophy doesn’t justify religion. You either believe or you don’t.

I think Voltaire was referring to the way society was organised for so many years, and in his time, on the basis of religious ideals which prompted and enforced moral codes such as the 10 commandments for example.

Then we have Marx’s “religion is the opiate of the masses”, a castaway remark that gained more importance than he intended. We do see how promises of a good afterlife kept people living in terrible conditions quiet. That and gin of course! Perhaps that is why we need to resurrect Christianity?

25Avalon

Alegrias Philosophy doesn’t justify religion. You either believe or you don’t.

I think Voltaire was referring to the way society was organised for so many years, and in his time, on the basis of religious ideals which prompted and enforced moral codes such as the 10 commandments for example.

Then we have Marx’s “religion is the opiate of the masses”, a castaway remark that gained more importance than he intended. We do see how promises of a good afterlife kept people living in terrible conditions quiet. That and gin of course! Perhaps that is why we need to resurrect Christianity?

Voltaire also said “We look to Scotland for all our ideas of civilisation”, so maybe we should listen to Alegrias1

Jumblygran

I read the article with interest as the people quoted have spent a lot more time looking at these questions than I have.
I think we all, whatever our beliefs, have faith in something even if is ourselves and our own abilities.

To those who have felt angry reading the article I have noticed that for myself if I am reacting angrily to something it almost always means I have something to deal with.

I think that in the West we still live in a society so steeped in Christian values that we have no idea what it would be like without. The idea that all humans have value has come from the Judeo Christian culture and the huge influence it has had on the world.
There is plenty of evil in the world, just read the news. The trouble is, even if we want it to, society doesn’t always treat people with respect.
We need some principles to live by even if it is just to show us how woefully short of the mark we are.
So where do we get those principles from?
If they are made up by men who is to say they are correct, the article is saying that we need the ethics of Christianity in our society if the West is to survive. Well I think I would have to agree.

?

Voltaire also said “We look to Scotland for all our ideas of civilisation”, so maybe we should listen to Alegrias1

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TBH, I have little knowledge and even less understanding of philosophy. Give me Maxwell's Equations any day. But if I had to pick a philosopher, let it be David Hume.

Some people think that Christianity will make the word a better place. I think that we each can make the world a better place without any religion at all.

Burns had the right idea:

O ye wha are sae guid yoursel',
Sae pious and sae holy,
Ye've nought to do but mark and tell
Your neibours' fauts and folly!