Covering hair

In the past, woman in Britain would only have been allowed to have their hair loose pre-marriage. Once they married they would have had their hair pinned up close to their head and have to wear close fitting covering over that. Nuns outfits are based on those.

The 'sheital' wig worn by orthodox (not just Hasidic) jewish women is usually far from drab - often much nicer than their real hair.

Many years ago I worked in an office alongside a young woman from one of Caribean Islands. She had two young children but always looked very smart, particularly her hair. It was only when she arrived at work the day before being due to go on holiday on a Caribean cruise with a very fancy hair-do and asked what I thought of it - and I replied it looked great, but not suitable for keeping on that sort of holiday. She laughed as she removed it. I had not known, but she ALWAYS wore wigs - part of her normal culture.

Must say, there have been many days when I have wished I did!!!!

My Muslim friend told me that music is discouraged, because it can lead to euphoria, and one should only feel like that about Allah.
I suppose it might loosely fall into the worshiping of false idols.

My sister had a friend in primary school who was Plymouth Brethren. She often went to her house after school when my mother was at work, and would be given her tea by her friend's mother. My sister often made the comment they had no TV, as her friend's mother had said ''It is unworldly''.
My mother once offered to take my sister and her friend to see Mary Poppins at the local cinema, but received a note from friend's mother stating that her daughter could not g to any cinema as their church banned it's members from going as cinemas were ''evil places''. My mother took offence at this and sadly the friendship fizzled out.

Esspee

Don’t the PB women wear bows in their hair to signify their belief that men are superior or some such nonsense.

The women near me all had low pony tails and wore triangular head scarves. They all wore mid calf full skirts and sensible laced shoes. You could spot them a mile a way, but somewhat predictably, the men had no identifying features.
Up until reading this thread, I didn’t realise how strict the Brethren was.
I do wonder where all the families went to.

sodapop

That was interesting GoldenLady. I will look out for the series you mention.

I never hear anything about Plymouth Brethren now Germanshepherdsmum I wonder if the sect still exists.

Sodapop there was a significant PB community very close to me (Derby suburb).
Well, there was until a few years ago. There was a PB chapel around the corner, but it’s since been demolished and the people seem to have disappeared into thin air. I don’t know why the chapel was taken down, it was only about 30 years old. All very odd really.
I was sorry to read about your birth mother, such a sad situation

Whilst I respect everyone’s right to believe in whatever sky fairy they wish (as long as their beliefs don’t impact on anyone else) when you look in detail at any religion you can’t help but see the ridiculousness in every single one.

which hardly shows the respect for other people's religious beliefs you claim to have.

We had a PB young woman who worked as a secretary in the office I was in. It was at the time that the internet was just coming into common use and when we became computerised she had to leave. I felt so sorry for her as she loved her job. She also told us that her husband had already been selected for her.

This was only 25 years ago. What a life.

Good grief. What a life.

There were PB pupils at my boys’ senior school. They were not allowed to watch tv programmes or even images from projectors, which made classes difficult for them. They would disappear from school at 16, the boys to work the local farms the Brethren owned while the girls got married and had babies.

When I had my third baby, in my 30’s, there was a PB woman on the ward, she was 23 and had had her fifth baby.

Don’t the PB women wear bows in their hair to signify their belief that men are superior or some such nonsense.

A girl in my class at school was Plymouth Brethren; she was a lovely, happy, friendly girl but was not allowed to cut her hair, not allowed to go to the cinema with the rest of us, even though it was to see a documentary about Scott of the Antarctic, no TV of course.

Whilst I respect everyone’s right to believe in whatever sky fairy they wish (as long as their beliefs don’t impact on anyone else) when you look in detail at any religion you can’t help but see the ridiculousness in every single one.

I agree, Esspee
That passage puts women firmly in their place as inferior to man

That was interesting GoldenLady. I will look out for the series you mention.

I never hear anything about Plymouth Brethren now Germanshepherdsmum I wonder if the sect still exists.

Callistemon

^Many moons ago, when I was doing “O level” religious studies it was explained to us that in the early Christian church Paul had decreed women should cover their heads in church to prevent slaves, who had shaven heads, being embarrassed or made to feel inferior while worshiping.^

Paul was a misogynist, wasn't he?

3: But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5: but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head -- it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6: For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil. 7: For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8: (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9: Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.) 10: That is why a woman ought to have a veil on her head, because of the angels.
Corinthians

Fascinating to read that Callistemon, thank you.

Whilst I respect everyone’s right to believe in whatever sky fairy they wish (as long as their beliefs don’t impact on anyone else) when you look in detail at any religion you can’t help but see the ridiculousness in every single one.

My dil is a rabbi in the Reform Jewish community. She has endured terrible abuse from people in more Orthodox sects because she doesn’t abide by their cultural norms.

We used to go to church on Easter Sunday in the little mountain village in Italy where we had holidays. I always covered my head because not to do so would have marked me out as not just foreign but downright weird!

What an interesting thread! My DiL is Jewish, my son not. She's not devout and does not go to a local synagogue, just when she visits her parents' home during the main festivals. My GDs go to a nearby C&E school where they celebrate all different faiths, but mainly Christian of course. I'm not sure what religion they consider themselves, but probably Jewish, like their Mum.
I went to a CofE primary school, going to church every Wednesday morning. We had to wear our school berets to church. One Wednesday my Mother couldn't find our school berets so sent my twin sister and I to church wearing a bright emerald and a bright red beret of hers! Not good.

Thank you GoldenLady, that’s very interesting.

I still feel uncomfortable entering a Church without a head covering but do so unless it’s winter as no-one seems to bother these days.

I used to live near a small market town where there was a fairly large community of Plymouth Brethren. All the women wore longish blue skirts and blouses (never dresses) and blue headscarves, folded diagonally and tied at the back of the neck so just the top of the head was covered. All had long hair. On Sundays all the men wore open necked white shirts and black trousers. I don’t recall seeing any of them looking happy.

About the wigs, remember the first scene in Fiddler on the Roof, where Tevya, the milkman, is explaining some of the orthodox Jewish traditions to the audience? He says, "Why do we wear these things? Well, I'll tell you. I don't know.

But it's tradition, and because of our traditions, we know who we are, and what God expects us to do."

Of course, by the end of the play, many of these traditions have fallen by the wayside. And although God is mentioned a lot, He doesn't exactly make His wishes known.

In addition to the movie Unorthodox, you can stream at least two very interesting Israeli series about orthodox Jews. They are in Hebrew, but have easily read subtitles in English.

One is called Srugim, and is on Prime video. It's a marvelous story about five friends, (three women, two men) and their trials and tribulations (and romantic attachments). They are educated professionals, and are "modern orthodox," live and dress pretty much the same as everybody else who is not Muslim, except that the men wear those little caps and some of the women do get wigs when they get married. And their dresses become very plain and modest. They seem to regard the clothing they wear as a badge of honor. And even within this group, there are variations in observance.

The other is called Shitsel, and is on Netflix. It is about the Hassidic community in Israel, they live and dress as if they were in Europe in about the 18th century, they are very male-dominated, the young people are given few choices in their lives, and I found them similar to a paternal-dominated fundamentalist sect. I have my own problems relating to people with that mind set, whatever their religion, but it's kind of interesting and to me, horrifying that people are still living that way at the present time.

I should add that I am Jewish, though secular, which is probably true of the majority of American Jews. It's more of a tribal identity than a religion, and it only took a generation or two to move away from the wigs and most of those ancient customs, although there are great variations in the level of observance, the same as with Christians.

I have a friend who used to live overseas and as she was in a fairly strict Muslim country, had to wear a full length robe. She was a huge fan. She wore pyjamas underneath at work and said it was the most comfortable she'd ever been.

Yes sodapop, it’s like a different world now.

St Paul advised amongst other things that a married woman should cover her hair.

He had been a Jew before his conversion to Christianity.

Until the 1500s most married women in Europe wore a head covering of some kind both indoors and outdoors. After that some upper class women didn't do so in their homes, but until the end of the 1st World War any woman seen in the street without a hat, scarf or shawl covering her hair was a prostitute touting for hire.

A married orthodox Jewish woman could just as well just wear a scarf or any other head covering that completely concealed her hair, as a wig. Many do so, as a visit to any city with a fairly large orthodox Jewish community such as Marseille will show you. Crocheted berets used to be fashionable amongst younger Jewish wives, as were square headscarves, You drew two corners of the scarf up to the top of your head from the back of your neck and knotted them or held them together with hair-grips, then you gathered the other two corners up bringing them up on top of your hair to your forehead and knotting the corners under scarf and hair at the back of your head. Think of grannie with her curlers in, and you will be more or less right!

Until the 2nd Vatican council held in the 1960s to modernise the Catholic church, all girls and women attending church or even just popping inside to look at the building had to cover their heads and wear sleeves that at the very least covered their shoulders. Since Vatican 2 there has been no obligation for women to cover their heads.

Russian and Greek orthodox Christians still expect women to wear long sleeved dresses or blouses and head coverings in church.

Jewish men and boys must cover at least the crown of their heads when praying or reading the Scriptures - hence the use of skull-caps, although ritually a hat serves the same purpose.

Muslims of both sexes commonly wear something on their heads while at prayer. Traditionally Muslim women and girls from the age of puberty are expected to completely conceal their hair from the gaze of unrelated men.

Some of all this was simply a matter of public decency. The Mosaic Law does not actually state that head coverings are necessary and the much disputed verses of the Qu'ran only state that both adult men and women should dress with propriety.

All societies have standards regarding what one can show off or what one must conceal in public. Western society is not nearly as strict today as formerly, but you would still risk a fine if you walked around in public with your bare bottom or genitals on display!

It is sad

Yes a rather superficial one JaneJudge my birth mother never married and was rather strange in some ways. By the time we met her family had mostly died apart from a brother who she lived with. She was still constantly worried that people in her village would find out about me. A sad life for her.