if god is so loving

My thoughts exactly, Farzanah. A cop-out indeed.

MOnica I have problems with your explanation for evil in the world, that humans have “free will”.
It is believed by Christians I understand, that God is omniscient, all seeing, all knowing and in possession of perfect foreknowledge.
If this is the case God knows in advance how humans will behave and the choices for good or bad that they will make, and the fact that they will be punished if bad. ie predetermined .

Isn’t this a contradiction?

What then is the point of pretending that humans have free will? It seems a bit of a cop out to the “evil question” and one which has long troubled theologians and philosophers alike.

Katie59 There is a BIG difference between believing in GOD and being part of a Religon

Being part of a religon is dying out with every new generation and that is because unfortunatley there has been much blood shed in the name of Religon

The youngens in my familt do believe in God and do pray But do not wish to say that they are part of any religon

petra

Theoddbird
My daughter was walking my 5yr old granddaughter home from school when out of the blue she said will you be my mummy next time
Not long after that we were walking along our sea front and she pointed out to the estuary and said ^i drowned out there^

That is thought provoking. I have heard of young children recalling a previous life. There was a film a long time ago which was supposedly based on a psychiatrists records about how he found a woman who was easily hypnotised and through various sessions she spoke as if she was in another life. I remember her dancing an Irish jig etc and then a part when she described herself hanging about the house for awhile after she had died. I wish I could remember the title.

My answer has always been that a loving God gave man free will - and that means he doesn't interfere in the world man created.

It is humankinds in built desire to always blame someone else for everything that leads to people to imagine that having set us free God is then going to interfere in our lives, for good or ill.

Redl's original question was about the nature of God, not about religiosity.

The problem of evil is about the nature of God.

True, certain sects are not only divisive but also discourage innovative thinking about the nature of God.

The West of Scotland, where I grew up in the 1950s, was blighted by sectarianism.

Whether you believed in religion or not, you were expected to identify either as a Catholic or a Protestant.

There was absolute religious apartheid in schools.

I was separated from my best friends at the age of four when we were sent to different schools - one with a blue uniform and one green.

One of my friends at my Protestant school fell in love with a Catholic boy when she was fifteen. She was an only child of older parents and her father was an elder of the Kirk.

They kept the relationship secret for eight years. AT the age of 23, still living at home although by then she was a qualified teacher and had been working for a few years, she told her parents about her Catholic boyfriend and was given an ultimatum - either give him up or get out of this house and we will never see you again. She chose to leave and soon after was married in the Catholic church.

They settled down about two miles away from her parents but had no contact, until a few years after the birth of their second child her mother called at their home one afternoon and asked if she could see her grandchildren. She then continued to visit quite regularly but made her daughter promise that she would never tell her father about the visits. The grandmother did at least have a relationship with the children as they grew up.

When her grand children were in their twenties, the grandmother died quite suddenly.

My friend then went to her parents house and spoke to her father for the first time since she had left to get married. He grudgingly said he would allow her to attend her mother's funeral but not her husband or children. He never knew that his wife had known them and loved them.

Although his daughter then tried to rebuild a relationship with him, he died some years later, a lonely and bitter old man

How much more fulfilling his life might have been without the curse of religious divisions.

No more than any other.

Exactly, Anniebach This is what the Irish are unwilling to accept -that the catholic population as a whole was complicit in what happened at these establishments.

A friend of one of my AC, the child of first generation irish immigrants to Britain was in a long term unmarried partnership. His mother would not meet his partner, even mention her. When his partner had a child, this woman would not meet nor acknowledge her grandchild and when a few years later her son died in a road accident that was the last his partner and child saw of his family.. This happened around 2010. I could tell similar stories, so do not tell me the Magdelen laundries were not the fruits of culture that accepted and endorsed these institutions.

This is the problem people mould religions to suit themselves. This is why religions constantly have movements trying to take them back to the basics. The Benedictine order of monks were established to return to a 'purer simpler' following of the teachings of jesus Christ. A few years later, the bebedictines were emmeshed in ordinary lives, so the Cistercian order was formed to retun to the simple Christian life, and few hundred years later the Franciscans did the same. It is the same in Judaism and Islam.

The problem is, as we see in Palestine is a corrupt leader can lead people into extremes, in the estern world we see cults grow up.

At the end of the day religion as about trying to take basicly selfish, self centred and aggressive humans and try to make them act in an unselfish, open-hearted and unaggressive way to each other. Un fortunately again and again it is the selfish, self cented nd aggressive human traits that win through and corrupt the truth and honesty of the religions they claim to follow.

The RC Church has a lot to answer for.

Parents placed their daughters in these homes

red1 I think you missed my point. Ireland was so church ridden because it reflected the way the Irish population thought and acted. All the nuns and clergy grew up in ordinary irish family and reflected the values they learned at home.

Now, of course, everyone in Ireland is saying 'nothing to do with me, I opposed it' Of course they would, but I have seen behaviour by Irish families who emigrated to England and were free of church control that excatly reflected the values that led to the Magdelen Laundries.

M0nica

In almost any religion, there is a central prophet and a script, which is at the centre of it that teaches peace, love and being good to others and the world.

the problem is that the members of all religions are ordinary people like us, with all our failings, and some of our failings are heinous. It is inevitable that whether born into a religion or later converting, many people will use that religion to their advantage and to the harm of others.

Religions are also a product of the culture and period in which they are being practiced and in the past there were social attitudes which we now find unacceptable but which were imposed by society and echoed in hownthir religion was interoreted then.

The dreadful 'homes'for unmarried mothers in ireland did not exist in isolation. The nuns who belonged to those convents were the products of ordinary irish families and how ever much Irish society may deplore them now, the fact is, at the time, irish society knew about these institutions and what happened there. Irish parents would consign their daughters there if they became pregnant out of marriage.

I am half Irish on both sides and I know if things that have happened in my own family and in that of friends with an irish background to know that those homes existed because they were an expression of broader irish society.

Brought up a catholic in England and at a school run by irish nuns, even as a child, I knew enough of about the repressive nature of irish catholicism to have been actively glad that my Irish ancestors had emigrated to England.

However, however bad the behaviour of those who profess to follow a religion, does not undermine the truth, justice and mercy that exist in the religion itself and the teachings of its founder.

monica, you are right in that ireland has been badly affected by religion.From launderies to the troubles.I have read a book about life in 1950's donegal,the title escapes me, but it is about rural life and the horrors of the church and how it invaded almost all areas of lives.Thankfully a lot have turned their back on RC in ireland nowadays.It was a dark time indeed.Im sure if Jesus does exist, he must be weeping.

Thanks for feedback Juliet27. If you are interested there may be a group of like minded people (humanists) near you.
I find exploring ideas and discussions with others stimulating. None of us have all the answers, however much we think we have it sorted.

I always admire your logic and reasoning MOnica but don’t always agree with your conclusions 😀

Farzanah

Try the Humanist Quiz on “How Humanist are you?” On U.K. Humanist site?

I did. 92% Humanist

The concept of “God” only exists as a means of controlling the population, that applies to all religions Christian, Islam, Bhuddist or any other. In many western nations “God” is obselete in that role, eastern religions persist in pseudo religious control.

Non religious nations, China and others control the population with secret police instead of priests or other religious officials.

Thank you. It's very appreciated.

In almost any religion, there is a central prophet and a script, which is at the centre of it that teaches peace, love and being good to others and the world.

the problem is that the members of all religions are ordinary people like us, with all our failings, and some of our failings are heinous. It is inevitable that whether born into a religion or later converting, many people will use that religion to their advantage and to the harm of others.

Religions are also a product of the culture and period in which they are being practiced and in the past there were social attitudes which we now find unacceptable but which were imposed by society and echoed in hownthir religion was interoreted then.

The dreadful 'homes'for unmarried mothers in ireland did not exist in isolation. The nuns who belonged to those convents were the products of ordinary irish families and how ever much Irish society may deplore them now, the fact is, at the time, irish society knew about these institutions and what happened there. Irish parents would consign their daughters there if they became pregnant out of marriage.

I am half Irish on both sides and I know if things that have happened in my own family and in that of friends with an irish background to know that those homes existed because they were an expression of broader irish society.

Brought up a catholic in England and at a school run by irish nuns, even as a child, I knew enough of about the repressive nature of irish catholicism to have been actively glad that my Irish ancestors had emigrated to England.

However, however bad the behaviour of those who profess to follow a religion, does not undermine the truth, justice and mercy that exist in the religion itself and the teachings of its founder.

Your posts show no evidence that you have studied theology red1.

Distruction is man made

SAGGI You are assuming i have not studied thelogy? From Thomas paine to hitchens etc etc I wont add any more........

nadateturbe

Yes, but they weren't.

Absolutely Nadateurbe!

Grieving is painful,some days are harder some days are easier but for me with faith ,hope and love it’s made me a stronger person .My faith made me find a deeper meaning to life .

I don't discount that we were 'created', but to me the idea of God in the generally-accepted religious sense seems over-simpistic.

To my mind it seems far more believable that beings from other planets have played a part in our evolution here on Earth, and might still do so.

I find it impossible to believe that there is anyone / anything out there that either monitors or cares about our individual behaviour unless it threatens the stability of the whole planet.

……You might want to start with Charles Darwin …although I can’t believe that you haven’t read him!?😳

Red1…..please do some reading ….i suggest Richard Dawkins or Daniel Dennet or Dan Barker ( an ex minister) still…this God thing. Had the whole of the 20 century AND the 21st passed people by.?!