Canon Andrew Hindley

OnwardandUpward

fancythat

MissAdventure

That doesn't help children or vulnerable people in the here and now, though.

No, those verses do not.

I perhaps should have linked to posts by OutwardsandUpwards above.

Apologies for the confusion.

Thanks for replying . I can't argue with the bible, but I will add that I'm sure if many people who are clergy read it and lived it, they would not bully or abuse.

People need to know that they are not protected by the church of England. In the past I have attended an Anglican church thinking that, at least it's got some governance and protection because it's The CofE! I was very wrong and mistaken.

Now I know there is no protection for not one single man, woman or child in its congregation UNLESS they have a witness, are on the PCC, are an Arch Deacon or are a warden. THOSE are the only ways you can complain about any misconduct.

How many of us can tick those boxes? I don't.

I now look back on some of the incredible behaviour I have experienced by people in the CofE church who should know better and I get it. Oh, I get it. They had a sense of power and thought they would get away with their AWFUL behaviour.

There are also some very nice people. But I feel bad for them now I know they won't be able to complain if anything bad happens to them.

Looking at it all from another angle, and it has probably been said on this thread already, a witness is essentially needed in all non church cases too, for a positive outcome, for a rape and sexual abuse court case?

That sounds trite but it is not supposed to be.
I agree with everyone that it shouldnt all necessarily need a witness.

Anniebach

Too easy to quote scripture, those verses applied to homosexuality before 1967

Please explain to me, others may understand, what you mean? The Pope takes a "love the sinner and condemn the sin" stance to out of marriage opposite gender sex, including homosexuality

Anniebach

Too easy to quote scripture, those verses applied to homosexuality before 1967

I would not have any answer myself, or from God, that you personally would be happier with.
Or most people come to that.

The Bible verses were specifically answering posts by OnwardandUpward.

paddyann54

I don’t believe in a god of any persuasion….religionis a man made concept to keep the peasants under control.It worked for centuries but as people became more educated and information more available to even the poorest it started to lose its hold.Churches get emptier by the week and congregations older. Just look at the mess the world is in over religions.

Are you suggesting life is better in countries without any religion, Russia, China, North Korea.

Hmm, not a terribly convincing argument.

fancythat

MissAdventure

That doesn't help children or vulnerable people in the here and now, though.

No, those verses do not.

I perhaps should have linked to posts by OutwardsandUpwards above.

Apologies for the confusion.

Thanks for replying . I can't argue with the bible, but I will add that I'm sure if many people who are clergy read it and lived it, they would not bully or abuse.

People need to know that they are not protected by the church of England. In the past I have attended an Anglican church thinking that, at least it's got some governance and protection because it's The CofE! I was very wrong and mistaken.

Now I know there is no protection for not one single man, woman or child in its congregation UNLESS they have a witness, are on the PCC, are an Arch Deacon or are a warden. THOSE are the only ways you can complain about any misconduct.

How many of us can tick those boxes? I don't.

I now look back on some of the incredible behaviour I have experienced by people in the CofE church who should know better and I get it. Oh, I get it. They had a sense of power and thought they would get away with their AWFUL behaviour.

There are also some very nice people. But I feel bad for them now I know they won't be able to complain if anything bad happens to them.

I don’t believe in a god of any persuasion….religionis a man made concept to keep the peasants under control.It worked for centuries but as people became more educated and information more available to even the poorest it started to lose its hold.Churches get emptier by the week and congregations older. Just look at the mess the world is in over religions.

I was brought up in the CofE and it’s parables, psalms and good use of language alongside the expectation that we are all responsible for caring for others, especially those less fortunate hasn’t left me.
My faith about the protection of children is in adequate safeguarding. Anyone who has worked in safeguarding, especially police, social workers, paediatricians, therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists etc will have been involved with adults and children who were sexually abused by those whose duty was to protect them. It could be a family member, a priest, teacher, doctor, police officer, social worker, imam, - it could be anybody. But, people who were abused in Churches, or in other places by so called men of god, carry particular pain, often shrouded in shame

Anniebach

Are the Clergy protected ?

Yes, I explained it all in a further back comment. Basically there are four categories under which a person may complain. Most of us probably would not qualify.

Too easy to quote scripture, those verses applied to homosexuality before 1967

I also realise those verses may be of no help to non believers.

Galaxy

I dont believe, so that has no relevance to me. With regard to keeping children safe I would prefer to put my faith in adequate safeguarding.

Well said!

MissAdventure

That doesn't help children or vulnerable people in the here and now, though.

No, those verses do not.

I perhaps should have linked to posts by OutwardsandUpwards above.

Apologies for the confusion.

I dont believe, so that has no relevance to me. With regard to keeping children safe I would prefer to put my faith in adequate safeguarding.

That doesn't help children or vulnerable people in the here and now, though.

Proverbs 6:16-19
There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

Psalm 37:1-10 ESV
Of David. Fret not yourself because of evildoers; be not envious of wrongdoers! For they will soon fade like the grass and wither like the green herb. Trust in the Lord, and do good; dwell in the land and befriend faithfulness. Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart. Commit your way to the Lord; trust in him, and he will act. ...

Revelation 21:8 ESV
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Luke 16:15 ESV
And he said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

Romans 12:17-21 ESV
Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Matthew 25:46 ESV
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Romans 12:19 ESV
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.

fancythat

^But IS God on the side of bullies and abusers or do they just seem to be getting away with it in this life?^

God, SO is not.

Will answer more fully, when I have more time.

Psalms 37:1-9
"Fret not thyself because of evil-doers, Neither be thou envious against them that work unrighteousness. For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, And wither as the green herb".

Psalm 12
Verses 5-7 express how God will arise to defend those who are being preyed upon by the wicked.
1 Corinthians 6:9 - Bible Gateway
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor ad...

Bible Gateway
Day 370: When the faithful vanish - Psalm 12
23 May 2021 — ... (vs 5-7). He believed that God would not be silent forever. The Holy Spirit leads the writer to express what God Hi...

Bethel Church Ripon
Psalms 37:1-9 Share - Bible.com
Psalms 37:1-9 American Standard Version (ASV) Fret not thyself because of evil-doers, Neither be thou envious against them that wo...
Bible.com

Psalms 37:27-29
27 Turn from evil and do good; then you will dwell in the land forever. 28 For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed ; the offspring of the wicked will perish.

I can find two or three more Bible verses on the same lines, if anyone wanted some more. I was going to answer the question myself, but have found it easier to use some Bible verses.

Bible verses often have to be taken in context.
So I found it harder to answer the question than I had anticipated.
Sometimes you can know the answers in your head. But find it hard to express.

Anniebach

Are the Clergy protected ?

I think in many cases yes, they have been - easier to try to sweep things under the carpet than face them head on. There's a very interesting article here about the CofE's failings:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr5n2542q82o

Are the Clergy protected ?

Anniebach

Why choose a vocation to have access to children ? I worked in a Cathedral for many years, was a member, lived a five minute
walk away , knew many priests and their families. Priesthood is much more than Sunday Services and visiting parishioners .

There are so many after school activities, the Scout Movement, I was an Akela! one could be involved with many
clubs.

I don't believe people choose a vocation to use it to abuse, but that in the vocation somehow the power goes to their head. This isn't only about children because adults can be bullied and abused too, by anyone of any vocation who is abusive. When it is clergy it is more shocking. It's even more shocking that they're protected.

You are right about the clubs. As a teen, my friend's Dad was accused of abusing boys in a well known Christian boys organisation. I never knew if it was true, but yes plenty of voluntary organisations where this could happen without choosing it as a profession.

Thankyou Marydoll

OnwardandUpward

A school teacher has the power to shape a child, for good or to damage them. A priest too.

So even though there is a big difference in vocation, the power and the responsibility are there.

This!

To nurture or destroy.

To plant seeds of hope or to steal it.

To build a future, or blight it.

A school teacher has the power to shape a child, for good or to damage them. A priest too.

So even though there is a big difference in vocation, the power and the responsibility are there.

Big difference between a school teacher and a priest,

I can quite easily accept that someone with an attraction to children would hide behind the church/school, anything that gives them a trusted role.