Canon Andrew Hindley

Before the (male) vicar retired, nor had I ever met a bully in the Anglican church or known of the damaging hierarchies.

Anyone of any gender who does bully or abuse is not fit for ministry. I have not seen anything on this thread condemning faith, but many are incensed that an organization as large as the CofE does not protect it's congregations or staff.

Why should women have less rights than men because of what men have done?

Anniebach

I have never met a bully in the Anglican Church.

I do not believe men who are pedophiles choose the ministry as a career.

Condemning the Christian faith , those who have served God, loved their fellowmen because of some is so wrong ,

Agreed.

I've never met a bully in the Catholic Church.

I don't believe men who are pedophiles choose to be priests, I think the number of pedophiles is equally spread through the population.

I know nothing to the CoE - have no opinion on the last bit, apart from condemning those who serve God because of some is wrong.

I have never met a bully in the Anglican Church.

I do not believe men who are pedophiles choose the ministry as a career.

Condemning the Christian faith , those who have served God, loved their fellowmen because of some is so wrong ,

It's not just boys who are abused by men, but girls. And girls can be abused by women.

So there needs to be checks to make sure the clergy are not living a double life, as so many ministers of all faiths have often done rather than confess and do the right thing. The CofE is well known for it's bullying culture throughout the ranks of ministry and this is completely opposite to what the bible teaches. Bullies are enabled by those who turn a blind eye and are also bullies.

Women can be abusers too.

So I don't think the answer is swapping the gender of the clergy employed, but regular checks on the lifestyle, values and faith of clergy.

Anniebach Paedophilia covers a wide spectrum of people. At one end there are paedophiles, who marry, build sustaining normal adult sexual relationships have normal jobs and probably prey on their own children and those round them, but there are others, like Jimmy Saville, and, I suspect this Canon Hindley where paedophilia is hard-wired in and that is the only type of relationship they can sustain.

There is a very interesting research paper that looks into the way a significant number of the most egregious and persistent child abusers who are almost invariably single, because paedophilic relationships are all they can sustain choose professions that give them this easy access to young people and without doubt such organisations are targetted by quite a number of paedophiles who note their priveleged access to children in situations where people assume that the adults can be trusted.
www.researchgate.net/publication/317849376_Sexual_Abuse_Within_Employment_Settings_A_Comparison_of_Work-Related_Intra-_and_Extra-Familial_Child_Molesters

To sentences from the abstract
Child sexual abuse (CSA) is a serious problem not only in the community but also in institutional settings such as youth-serving organizations, churches, and schools.

Data revealed that child abusers who worked with children tended to be better educated, were less likely to be married, had fewer nonsexual convictions, and were more likely to abuse male post-pubescent children

A Vicar at a church near us used his position to be close to teens.

I was told about it over 20 years ago by a friend who lost her virginity to him in the pulpit age 15, but nothing was done until this year when I think he finally retired. She never wanted to speak against him and nor did the others. Perhaps they felt it was their word against his, or maybe they knew that no one would hear them because they didn't fit the criteria of reporting to the Clergy Disciplinary Measure?

In contrast, our local church was very well run by the (very respectable) vicar, who sadly retired. He never put a foot wrong as far as I know. It really depends on the person.

Oh I don't know, a paedo milk man would probably be all over the papers too. Milkmen have always had a bit of reputation with women as it is!

I do not agree that pedophiles choose the careers which give them access to children, this rules out pedophiles in building trade, chefs, army, navy, airforce, refuge collection, painters and decorators, tailors, to name a few.

The media go wild if a priest, celebrity, etc is arrested , not if a
milkman is

Paedophiles choose professions that enable them to access children. The most persistent and incorrigible paedophiles are incapable of having relationships with adults.

For this reason they will choose professions like religious organisation because it is possible to be single without comment and most people have an automatic trust in someone who claims to have given their life to God and it will be made easy for them to access children and be trusted by parent and child alike.

But religions wouldn't exist if people did not belong to them and that means their adherents and oranisers are ordinary mortals and prone to all the failings that all mortals have. Individually they can be selfish, proud, power-hungry, homo phobic, mysoginist, just like anyone else. On the other hand they attract people who are truly good, even saintly, and I have known several such.

I was brought up a catholic - and I still am (sort of) but I have always been able to see through the organisation to the person behind it all, Jesus Christ and his teachings as written in the gospel. (not the old testament) aand found that they were a good template for good living.

There must be good people who are Christians. Actually I know this to be true particularly the SA.

But all this pomp and robes and strange hierarchy lends itself to mis use somehow. How did it change from humble beginnings to this? ( rhetorical)
I feel the God shaped hole and would love to be part of a caring community but I can't reconcile myself to some of the teachings and behaviours.

It is nothing new sadly, how does religion consistantly get away with it, what would the gentle jesus say? Some of us are force fed religion at a young age, there lies the roots of cognitive dissonance.I was raised catholic with a bishop and cardinal in the extended family, what chance did i have? It has taken me a long time to realise what religion is, very wrong......

Interestingly, many of the women who have recently been given jobs by the C of E are not vicars, but "Priests in Charge" , which means they do not have the freehold which gave Canon Andrew Hindley his security.

These recently employed women have little job security and very little pay. A Priest in Charge legally is a Curate and not a Vicar. So it seems like women who are new to the profession are being mugged off because of what men have done. They have all of the risk and all of the stress with no power and no guarantee of long term employment.

Caleo

Onward and Upward, so true. Religion has this to be said of it------how else may we keep alive the message of Jesus .

A message is not just words because actions will always speak louder.

Someone may forget what you said, but they will always remember how you made them feel.

How may we keep alive the message of Jesus? By being like him and asking WWJD?

Look at how someone treats the waiter, or the lowest in society and you will know which message they want to share.

Perhaps even faith and religion are not the same.

I've known people who looked like they were "all in" on a Sunday and living a life of depravity the rest of the week.

Onward and Upward, so true. Religion has this to be said of it------how else may we keep alive the message of Jesus .

This case shows religion and spirituality are not the same.

So true about abusers being charming, likeable and persuasive. I don't know why people are so trusting as many times even someone's own wife does not know the level of depravity or the bottom falls out of her world when she finds out.

One I can think of, went to "a lot of church meetings" but later admitted to cruising graveyards for s** or picking up prostitutes, so his poor wife was forced to get tested for STD's. She had stayed home innocently bringing up the kids, believing he was at a church meeting, for years and everyone believed the front he showed them (which of course they wanted to see). The prostitute addiction was a reason they were so short of money...He was not willing to change or admit it was wrong. Although they had regular s** , he blamed her for his addiction.

Unfortunately over the years I've met a lot of these men in churches, seen and heard a lot, so I don't take things at face value. I keep an open mind and give the benefit of the doubt, but I've always got one foot out the door (if I went into a church in the first place, that is!)

Exactly this. They are devious, manipulative and cunning. Sadly, despite all we do, there will always be those who fool us.

Marydoll, perhaps I should have said ‘historically’ but the reality is that despite what may be good safeguarding policy and practices, abuse continues. Abusers are often charming, likeable and persuasive - as was the headteacher in our school. People still find it hard to believe someone they know, like and respect can be responsible for abuse.
I delivered safeguarding training. -on one occasion with a man later convicted of sexual abuse of children. He hid it well.

Its an interesting thing , safeguarding. I have recently stopped volunteering at a centre. I reported a concern and never heard anything. Also I am able to slip in and out of the building undetected.

I fear you can have all the systems you like in place but things can still go wrong.

Apologies for wandering off topic.

Iam, I have to dispute that. Things have improved dramatically in the RC religion in Scotland, with national protocols and training. Every parish and Diocese follow the same, mandatory procedures.
At least once a year and often more, clergy and Parish Safeguarding officers have to attend mandatory training. P.V.Gs are renewed every three years for those working in regulated work with children and vulnerable children and it is not a box ticking exercise. It is quite onerous, but essential.
Once a year, we all have to attend the National Safeguarding Conference, where more training is delivered and delegates have an opportunity to express concerns or have queries answered. Also, it is live streamed, so that those unable to physically, can still attend.

I agree about the CofE and RC organisationally being poor on safeguarding. They may be the ones we hear most about but the Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mosques are imo good at keeping authorities at bay. It’s rather like the power the Catholic Church had historically.

A teacher was once sacked from a school my children attended because his paedophile tendencies became apparent. Shortly after, the local cathedral employed him in a role which meant he was in regular close contact with the choir boys. So their recruitment procedures lacked important safeguards. I was friends with the organist and able to give him the history. The man was removed.
The CofE does not have a good track record on these matters ... nor indeed the RC.

There are more women than men in teaching, social work, family law, nursing, general practice and more. Women are joining engineering, science, tech etc in increasing numbers. Apologies if this generalisation irritates -I’m a 1970’s feminist but it’s not changed , females are drawn to caring professions. The CoE had to accept female vicars. I heard a male vicar friend complaining recently about the difficulty men had in becoming Bishops because the women got these prestigious posts 😇