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Religion/spirituality

Social Necessity of Spiritual Need

(95 Posts)
Caleo Sat 22-Feb-25 10:35:59

Spiritual need is necessary for human life. Without spiritual need a society would be stuck in outworn traditions or follow some evil cult such as Trumpism or Nazism.

Evil cults are identifiable by how they serve the few to the disadvantage of the many.

Outworn traditions are identifiable by apathy , and often by their cruelty towards individuals.

Spiritual need is identified by the courage to stand for the good the true and the beautiful.

Caleo Mon 24-Feb-25 12:47:41

Skye, ministers have to preach to the congregations they actually have sitting in the pews.Many people who attend their church will have been taught since infancy that miracles happened, and that miracles are historical events.

Jesus did I believe give his life 'as a ransom'in the sense that what Jesus believed was dangerous . Jesus well knew that he was a serious nuisance to the Roman authorities and that he would eventually be put to death. Socrates too died in similar circumstances when he became too much of a thorn in the side of the Athenian authorities. Martin Luther King also sacrificed his life for the common good, and many many others .

Caleo Mon 24-Feb-25 12:11:35

In these modern times there are few who believe in supernatural miracles. Education is universal in developed countries , and science is taught.

Jesus as an icon of goodness and truth adapts from the age of faith to the present age of scientific enlightenment. The moral code as promulgated by Jesus remains the basis of our civilisation. Outworn supernaturalist beliefs are unnecessary because the moral code as exemplified in the Sermon on the Mount serves our scientific age as well as it served medieval supernatural faith.

Skye17 Sun 23-Feb-25 18:27:34

Caleo According to Jesus himself, his purpose was 'to give his life as a ransom for many' (Matthew 20.28), i e to pay the penalty for sin for all who will trust in him. Though of course he did also teach and give an example on how to live a good life.

Of course, people who think the material world is all there is must think he either lied or was crazy when he claimed to be God. (E g, 'When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left' - Matthew 25.31-33.) C S Lewis called this the Lunatic, Liar or Lord trilemma.

If he was a lunatic or a liar, he didn't really show how to live a good life, as you say, did he? If he was sane and truthful, he is God and the material world is not all there is.

Skye17 Sun 23-Feb-25 18:02:24

fancythat I think he did too, and there is a good intellectual case for saying that.

Cross Examined blog post, ‘The Minimal Facts of the Resurrection’
crossexamined.org/the-minimal-facts-of-the-resurrection/

Mike Licona and Gary Habermas, The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus
amzn.eu/d/fKzxObP

fancythat Sun 23-Feb-25 14:26:01

^ there is no supernatural way of being. All being is natural.^

Your post before this one indicates the supernatural.
Jesus died on the cross and was raised again.

Caleo Sun 23-Feb-25 11:28:13

I will not be attending an Alpha course because there is no supernatural way of being. All being is natural.

We need to be politically active in the service of good, truth, and beauty. We do not need to escape into supernatural beliefs except for occasional entertainment and relaxation in the form of ghost stories.

Caleo Sun 23-Feb-25 11:20:58

Taichinan, it's escapist to reduce spiritual need to a search for what makes one feel happy. This world is full of horrors ;Jesus and other prophets and philosophers did not work to make people feel better but to show how to live a good life.

Jesus got his hands dirty getting to grips with the evils of his time and place when imperial Rome had colonised Palestine and ruled by brutality.

Skye17 Sat 22-Feb-25 22:30:59

Allira He did.

Skye17 Sat 22-Feb-25 22:27:49

fancythat

Caleo

Apologies, Fancy That, for not replying to you sooner.I am so glad to be supported by a Christian. I don't think I'd be acceptable to any Christian church as I ask awkward questions, but I do love Jesus.

The Churches I know, welcome questions.

The ones I know do too. Come on an Alpha course, no questions off bounds there.

Skye17 Sat 22-Feb-25 22:25:31

Thanks Lathyrus3, no problems 😀

Allira Sat 22-Feb-25 22:24:02

fancythat

Caleo

Apologies, Fancy That, for not replying to you sooner.I am so glad to be supported by a Christian. I don't think I'd be acceptable to any Christian church as I ask awkward questions, but I do love Jesus.

The Churches I know, welcome questions.

Jesus asked awkward questions too.

Taichinan Sat 22-Feb-25 22:18:15

To me, "spiritual need" translates as a desire to have a belief that there is something more to our existence than is apparent to the eye. Some people find that in organised religion, others find it through thought and meditation. It is highly personal and subjective, and
because of that I don't recognise that it can be a 'social necessity'. The two don't go together at all.

fancythat Sat 22-Feb-25 21:54:34

Caleo

Apologies, Fancy That, for not replying to you sooner.I am so glad to be supported by a Christian. I don't think I'd be acceptable to any Christian church as I ask awkward questions, but I do love Jesus.

The Churches I know, welcome questions.

Lathyrus3 Sat 22-Feb-25 20:09:53

I appreciate your reply Skye and started to type a reply and then decided a discussion about CS Lewis was a distraction from the thread so deleted it.

Please don’t think I’m ignoring you. I was quite enjoying arguing my case and would continue to debate his merits or otherwise on another thread, but I think we might be the only two on it 😬

NotSpaghetti Sat 22-Feb-25 19:32:36

the ethic I support is social as opposed to individual

Surely all ethics are personal? Is that not individual?

I have what my mother would have called a "social conscience" and believe in supporting others. My ethics are my own.
I'm not sure what the "social ethic" is.

Not trying to be awkward.

FriedGreenTomatoes2 Sat 22-Feb-25 19:24:22

I agree with your last sentence Caleo.

Caleo Sat 22-Feb-25 19:05:41

Not Spagh, I say social necessity because the ethic I support is social as opposed to individual. Most of us here are reared within the broadly Christian moral code, and I guess most of us here want to be good whether or not there is any personal reward for being good.

Caleo Sat 22-Feb-25 19:00:06

Apologies, Fancy That, for not replying to you sooner.I am so glad to be supported by a Christian. I don't think I'd be acceptable to any Christian church as I ask awkward questions, but I do love Jesus.

Caleo Sat 22-Feb-25 18:48:53

Concerning the word 'spiritual', I not that many responders are unwilling to revise what they have always thought the word meant.
Please note that Wittgenstein wrote that the meaning of a word is its use.

I recognise that my usage of 'spiritual 'is not the popular traditional usage. Since I have no use for supernaturalism or the historicity of Biblical myths I seek to use the word 'spiritual' in a practical sense and even in a political sense .

Skye17 Sat 22-Feb-25 18:45:08

petra

Galaxy

Can you. I am not being deliberately difficult. But take arrogance, it is for example a prerequisite of many skilled surgeons grin.

Galaxy
What’s the difference between god and a surgeon. God doesn’t think he’s a surgeon 😂 Love that one.

😂😂

NotSpaghetti Sat 22-Feb-25 18:44:40

We're you looking to chat around the idea of need, good and belonging maybe Caleo?

I think I'm just not very bright tonight. Sorry.

I'm not sure if you have a premise/theory that you wanted to talk about?

Skye17 Sat 22-Feb-25 18:42:27

Lathyrus3

Hmm ,Interesting as C S Lewis is ( and I have enjoyed many of his writings) I actually think that statement begins with a fallacy or at least an unproven statement which he asserts with such authority that people assume it is a fact rather than a belief.

It’s a clever sleight of hand that he uses often in his writing.
( And notice the nod to his misogynistic views😱😬)

He was undoubtedly a spiritual person. It permeates all his writing. But was he “good”. At lot of the time he was simply awful to those he considered less than himself. Arrogant, unjust, selfish, conceited and definitely indoctrinated.

Oh dear.

Having read C S Lewis‘s autobiography, Surprised by Joy, I can say that whatever his faults may have been he was undoubtably an independent thinker and in no way indoctrinated. As he wrote, ‘I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England.’ He had been thinking about this for years and was reluctantly convinced.

I do know that Lewis bothered writing back by hand to every reader who wrote to him via his publishers, including children, so he wasn’t that selfish.

Do you mean that ‘Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for those desires exists’ is an unproven statement? I can’t think of any desires that creatures are born with without satisfaction for those desires existing, can you?

By ‘men’ Lewis may well have meant ‘human beings’ rather than ‘males’. He was writing in the 1940s, after all. So I don’t think he was necessarily being misogynistic there.

Caleo Sat 22-Feb-25 18:40:49

Lathyrus, concerning CS Lewis, perhaps he prayed "God make me the thing I would be and not the thing I am."

Caleo Sat 22-Feb-25 18:37:38

Janeainsworth , I defined what I meant by 'spirituality''. My definition does indeed pertain to the general good.

janeainsworth Sat 22-Feb-25 18:21:07

Caleo By "spiritual need" I mean one's need to purpose to act in the general good, as opposed to being stupid, selfish, greedy, arrogant. conceited, or indoctrinated.
Thank you for clarifying that.
But I think acting for the general good has nothing to do with spirituality.
It is perfectly possible for atheists to act unselfishly and consider the effect on others of their acts or omissions.
And some people clearly have no need, spiritual or otherwise, to behave kindly towards others.