Methane cracking for clean energy

We have gone through these arguments or very similar ones on a range of threads over the years. Neither is going to convince the other and we just go round swapping the same arguments in different forms on different threads. It must be very tedious for others taking part on any given thread to read both of us again and again saying much the same each time.

Have we? I thought you were quite new on here.

DJ I think we will just have to agree to differ, we have been through versions of this discussion so many times.

I do not know that there can be too much dependency on windpower. Can there be? I thought you said the problem was with storage, which they are trying to overcome at the moment.

I know what happens when there is a surge. It happened on my estate last weekend. They are still trying to fix some of the houses. Some of the street lights are still off.
Fortunately my son and his family were not affected, so we just stuck a mesage on the window telling them to phone when we were needed. Lost a bit of food from fridge and freezer, even though we were going back and forward with food most weekend.
However, it was to do with old wiring in the exchange, the neutral going, which caused the surge. Lots of computers, lights and televisions blowing up.
I think we will all be more careful in future.

I use Ecotricity because of the agenda. I think most people who use Ecotricity must know of it. He advertises on the back of the Viva! magazine and gives a £60 donation to Viva! for everyone who joins.
Like I said, I can't afford to have solar or ground source, so I think paying Ecotricity to research into renewable energy is one bit towards the environment.
In the advert he says
"Together with Energy and Transport, Food is one of the three biggest sources of carbon emmissions in Britain - that's why campaigning for a plant-based diet is an important part of our work."
Can't be more open than that.

By the way DJ, as you haven't picked the issue up I assume you are relaxed about the problems too much dependence on windpower can cause and the regular use of diesel power generation kit to remedy this.

Once again I am not objecting to the food, I am sure it is excellent, as is everything Dale Vince does. I merely commented that I scent an agenda here and anyone choosing to buy ecotricity should know of it. It may well encourage some people to buy their energy from Ecotricity, but others may be less enthusiastic. I am passing no moral judgements, making no criticisms. I am just saying that if there is an agenda then it should be out in the open so that potential consumers can use it to inform their buying decisions.

Isn't the point that we need all sorts of renewable energy - except I do not like the idea of nuclear. Ecotricity do not use nuclear.
Strangely EDF are not going to build any more nuclear power stations in France, which is why they are trying to build/fund them here.
If you want fracking under your house, please tell the powers that be. That will save them trying to frack in places where they do not want the wells....

Monica, Forest Green Rovers have won an award from Sport and Leisure Catering Magazine for 'Menu of the Year', beating places such as the Tower of London and Grosvenor Casinos!

It does seem that when people really put their mind to recycling and finding uses for "waste products" they eventually find good ways of reusing stuff like waste plastics.

DJ I am sorry I have not looked at this for a few days.

conservationmagazine.org/2015/09/what-if-we-solved-our-co2-problem-by-making-stuff-with-it/

www.scientificamerican.com/article/waste-co2-could-be-source-of-extra-power/
www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/08/160804171642.htm

There seem to be quite a lot of development going on to utilise waste CO2 .

My contribution is halving our domestic energy consumption, and more, without moving house and buying my electricity from EDF, 100 % of whose electricity comes from low carbon sources. 95% of France's electricity is produced from low-carbon sources, most of it nuclear, the rest wind and hydro power. and it comes to Britain through the inter-connector cable running under the channel.

I recently visited the tidal barrage at Rances, which has been in operation since 1966. This has reversible turbines that can produce power 24/7. Over 50 years later Britain is only starting to play with this reliable form of low carbon energy source, having turned down the Severn Barrage and now toying with the possibility of tidal barrages along the South Wales coast, as ever against strong opposition.

There are many problems with being too dependent on wind power, especially from offshore sources, the power from these is not regular and when the wind is blowing sudden guests the rise in electricity supply suddenly feeding into the grid can be close to uncontrollable. Danish grid controllers, who have had such problems, the country has had to impose a moratorium on further wind power, describe controlling their grid as like riding a bucking bronco. What happens if there is a sudden surge into the grid? It can cause a shut down of the grid and a partial or total blackout. Fortunately there is a network of diesel fuelled' black start' power systems, and 'black' really does describe their emissions, to get the system up and running again.

Fracking? I am quite happy with fracking, even under my house, under properly controlled conditions. DH is currently involved in the installation of offshore wind turbines. He thinks there is too much optimism about both their durability and reliability and we conveniently forget the huge amount of energy used to build them and install them.

I have no problem with it, but it supports my impression that this project may have an agenda behind it that I do not necessarily agree with.

Have you found out any more about it, nelliemoser? I'd be pleased to read it if you have.

And your point is?
Why is being vegan a problem with the production of environmentally friendly energy?
Perhaps you's rather have fracking near you. I'd rather have wind turbines or a gas mill.
By the way, I do get my energy from Ecotricity and consider that my contribution to the reduction of my energy footprint.
I am probably paying extra to produce renewable fuel, which seems weird. Can't afford solar panels or heat pumps. That's my contribution to climate change. What's yours?

I still wonder about the Ecotricity agenda. According to Wikipedia the chairman, Dale Vince is vegan and in 2010 he became a major shareholder of Forest Green Rovers F.C. In February 2011, Rovers players were banned from eating red meat for health reasons, and a few weeks later the sale of all red meat products was banned at the club's football ground, leaving only vegetarian options as well as free-range poultry and fish from sustainable stocks.

I am not saying we should not use this method of energy production. I want a lot more specific information about the process and the ecological effects. Preferably from other people than those running their "pet project".

Unforseen consequences spoil many good ideas and the possibilities need to be considered.
Too late to read any more.

“The low carbon aspirations of Winchester through their Low Carbon Strategy are commendable but ambitious, and it needs projects like this one at Sparsholt College to help the 20% target of energy generated from renewables by 2020 in order to stand any chance of meeting this.

“I'm confident that working with Ecotricity, the College will be able to allay the many unfounded concerns that have been raised during the Planning Application process, and ensure that the project both delivers strongly on its outcomes without inconvenience to those living nearby or further afield.

“I'm also delighted that this project has been so well supported by Grant Funding from the Enterprise M3 LEP and look forward to working with Ecotricity on the delivery of the project.

“It’s good for developing the learning and skills of our current agricultural students and also for developing skills for the future of the industry. It’s also a really significant low carbon energy project for the Winchester area, and in the wider public interest.”

From the Principal of Sparsholt College.

Although I am vegetarian.

Monica, they are using a natural fertiliser to improve the soil, not an expensive one. It's the waste from the gas mills.
It's not made poorer at all. If you read the last link, it tells you that. It says it will bring the land back into use after the soil has been improved.

It's not a vegetarian agenda. He says it can be used to feed livestock. It's like old-fashioned crop rotation.

The first gas mill to be in production is at Sparsholt College, near Winchester, which is an agricultural college. I think they would complain if livestock were to suffer from it.
He intends to put in for planning permission anywhere where fracking is being considered. Of course, if you'd rather have fracking....

Nellie, you have put your finger on the flawed thinking in my original post. If this process, flagged up by thatbags can be used for natural gas, it can presumably also be used for biogas.

In that case, this equipment and process can be used to produce an emission free renewable fuel.

I am going offline for 36 hours, so no more from me on this subject for 36 hours, unless I find a way of getting online in adverse circumstances.

'What a relief' Ican hear you all saying

DJ Yes, my response did look as if it was a respons to your link. It actually a response to thatbags original link.

Generating methane from bio materials is not new. It is what anaerobic digesters do. In my area we have a weekly food waste collection that goes to into such a system and our local sewage works also produces gas by a similar process and feeds it into the grid. The large scale collection of garden waste, from households or through tips could also be re-directed to that rather than being turned into green compost, and the waste products of the anarobic digester could be sold as a garden improver in the way sewage sludge is sold to farmers.

The ecoctricity scheme sounds fine, but I am uneasy about their source of fuel. It is easy and glib to talk about grass harvested from low quality farm land which would otherwise be used as pasture. This low quality land is actually put to a good use when it is used for pasture, and the cowpats helped to fertilise the land and make it more productive. Just cropping the grass and doing nothing to feed the soil will soon lead to a drop in grass crop, unless it is then artificially fertilised. How marginal 'marginal' land is rather depends on demand for agricultural products.

Do I sense a vegetarian agenda behind this. This land is better made poorer and less productive so cows cannot be grazed on it, so that the number of cattle reared for slaughter will be reduced, the price of food will rise etc etc. Why cannot Ecotricity just source its green matter for biogas from green material available from other sources? Garden waste, forestry waset and agricultural waste? Probably more of it and more readily available.

The more I look at this the more questions I have about their grass growing project.
Why put expensive fertiliser on grassland that is only being used for methane production and how about efforts to get uplands etc to return to more natural state?
This could allow the uplands to improve water retention and allow the vegetation to slow down the waters in the uplands to prevent flooding.
I would love to be able to find the full details of all these developments.

www.ecotricity.co.uk/our-green-energy/our-green-gas/how-green-gas-works

Are you saying we shouldn't have gas at all?

Have you looked at the link to Sparsholt College where the first digester is being built?
He explains where the grass comes from.

I heard something about a viable industrial use for CO2 and Methane on the radio the other day.

I cannot see how the "green gas" bit benefits us.
If you are still producing methane from an Anaerobic Digestor process, you might not be using non-renewable fossil fuels, but you are still going to be producing methane which is one of the worst greenhouse gasses going.

Also you would need to be able to get enough spare grass that is not needed for animal feed and I would think we could not grow enough grass in winter to keep that "pot" boiling. I am a bit sceptical about this process.
Does anyone have anymore information.