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Plain old humanity versus equality of numbers

(17 Posts)
thatbags Wed 06-Apr-16 07:23:49

Or, as this Tweeter puts it, "acknowledging sex differences can be more humane than denying them".

Posting this because there's a meme about it being somehow wrong that there aren't equal numbers of women and men in certain kinds of job. This puts the human rather than the arithmetical slant on the issue.

Gracesgran Wed 06-Apr-16 08:24:28

Has anyone stopped acknowledging the differences between the sexes?

This question seems to show just the same misconception about equality we see in all areas - be it women, minorities, the disabled, etc. A society structured towards the "differences" shown by white, able bodied, males from a certain layer of society is not an equal one.

"Gender equality means men and women having the same rights and obligations, and everyone having the same opportunities in society. Gender equality is also about justice and about sharing responsibilities, both in the family and society. If gender prevents us from seeing the individual’s strengths and weaknesses, this can lead to discrimination and limited opportunities for the individual."

thatbags Wed 06-Apr-16 09:58:03

"Has anyone stopped acknowledging the differences between the sexes?"

In some circles, apparently they have. Thus the quote from someone who follows such circles.

thatbags Wed 06-Apr-16 10:01:43

I think the point is that some people who claim to be fighting for gender equality don't make any allowances for that fact that men and women making perfectly reasonable different life choices explains a lot of the differences in 'outcome', i.e. choice of job/career and subsequent income. The argument is that when you allow for the different choices, there is no gender equality gap in pay.

jinglbellsfrocks Wed 06-Apr-16 10:16:39

I would feel more comfortable with that if it was a woman putting the theory forward. As it is it smacks of a man patting women on the head and saying, "There, there, dear, we know you are happier at home with the children".

I don't think there are many jobs that a woman couldn't do as well as a man. Obviously not in the extremes of manual oil rig working or coal mining. Brainwise there is probably no difference.

Gracesgran Wed 06-Apr-16 10:29:59

" Thus the quote from someone who follows such circles."

It didn't really seem to be a quote thatbags just an opinion from someone who thinks others would say such things. Really just the usual judgemental and carping comment imo - but I may have missed something. I would put it on a par with the comments that blame "health and safety" or "the EU" or any other body to hand, with little or no facts to back up the comments. As I say I may have missed some real comments from real people who have "stopped acknowledging the differences" in the twitter post, rather than the red top style complaints that seem to be just based on the posters view of the world.

Marmark1 Wed 06-Apr-16 19:57:27

We were chatting with the lovely great niece and her equally lovely friends the other day, ( of both sexes) they are just 17 or coming up for,doing a levels this year.We talked about feminism,and funny or not they all agreed there was absolutely no discrimination in their school.All confident in what they want to do and with no reason to believe they won't be able to do it.

thatbags Wed 06-Apr-16 20:34:34

You could be right, gracesgran, but I think I've seen women making the same sort of comment. I'll check.

marmark, sounds familiar. Minibags is at secondary school and the girls don't take any shit, if you'll excuse the expression, from the boys. The attitude seems to be "Deal with it, Laddie!"

thatbags Wed 06-Apr-16 20:35:39

And, of course, there's no discrimination from the teachers so, for instance, a girl can't cry off PE because of her period. Then the "deal with it" thing comes from the teacher!

FarNorth Wed 06-Apr-16 21:00:22

That seems a tad unfair if the girl genuinely feels unwell, in a way that boys never do.

thatbags Wed 06-Apr-16 21:12:29

If it is genuine, e.g. bad cramps, they would go straight to first aid room so I don't think there's a problem. It's when they are just trying to skive that they get that deal with it response.

thatbags Wed 06-Apr-16 21:16:52

The quote is from Stephen Pinker's book The Blank Slate, which has a large number of excellent reviews.

I think the thing is that too much of what is said about the gender gap in this country nowadays is actually about differences in outcome, not differences in opportunities. I'm sure there are still deep seated unfairnesses in many countries

Gracesgran Thu 07-Apr-16 08:20:26

I am not really one of the twitterati thatbags so may (will!) need guidancegrin Do you mean the whole post (tweet?) was a quote. If that is the case then who is the quoted quoting? smile

I am afraid women can sometimes be the most misogynistic. If we are saying that women express this opinion, i.e., that we should not aim for equality of opportunity within companies. etc., as women make different choices because of the differences between the sexes then, in my opinion, those women saying this have not understood the conditioning of women and society as a whole over the years.

The "arithmetical slant" is just a way of giving opportunity that is otherwise barred to those who do not resemble the group already in power - however it is comprised.

For what it is worth I believe we also now need more male equality currently so that more men may choose to be "at home" and "caring" in a way they have been excluded from until recently. We should not be prejudiced about their capabilities either smile

thatbags Thu 07-Apr-16 08:36:40

My understanding is that the whole tweet is a quote from Stephen Pinker's book and SteveStewartWilliams (@SteveStuWill) is quoting it, gg.

I don't think Pinker is arguing that women shouldn't aim for equality of opportunity within companies. I think he is saying that, in many cases, and for perfectly good genetic and biological reasons, many women don't. The fact that they don't is not an argument against equality of opportunity.

I agree about the concept of equality of opportunity being applied to men's choices as well, particularly in fields of work that have traditionally been regarded as "women's work".

The book's on my reading list.

Gracesgran Thu 07-Apr-16 08:39:33

I think it should be on mine too thatbags smile. Thank you for explaining it; one day I will get to grips with twitter!

thatbags Thu 07-Apr-16 08:48:52

As a suggestion, gg, I think a good way to get into Twitter is to choose someone to follow, not necessarily anyone famous (you could choose something relatively neutral like @BBCBreaking (news), for instance), and see how you go from there.

As with Gransnet, you have to choose a username and password. You can use your real name or something else, e.g. I'm 'baggythecrust' @baggythecrust; our own Gransnet Cari is Cari Rosen @cazroz smile

thatbags Thu 07-Apr-16 08:52:54

PS If you do decide to have a go and want to let me know what your @ is, I'll follow you. Some people seem to Use Twitter in order to collect followers; for me it's more about finding people I want to follow because I find their tweets interesting or, in the case of photos, nice to look at. Many of them follow back.

It's that simple, really. One doesn't have to join in the silly nonsense that the daft media is always making a big deal out of.