Really cold day today and wind and solar are able to provide only 8% of the total power we are using.

Casdon

There are a lot of hydropower stations in Wales too, we get plenty of rain to serve them. Generating power locally is something that a lot of communities are interested in, so there’s a bidding process for schemes.

The hydro in Wales is small scale, the water supply dams in Elan valley etc generate some, most of the rest is micro scale.
There are valleys that could be flooded but the locals wouldn’t like that, the same could be said about the Lake District or Yorkshire Dales.

If we relied on generating our own energy it would be pretty chilly in winter, small wind turbines are a non starter in built up areas, too much turbulence, solar + a battery is the best option for electricity but thats only part of your energy. For heating most use gas replacing that is the hardest part,

Lathyrus3

Ah, that’s interesting. I looked it up - hope you don’t mind, I was interested.

There seems to be a push for lots of small local schemes. Have I got it right? Good for Scotland!

Yes, it’s a good idea to research it as there’s so much information, I couldn’t summarise it.
A lot of the schemes are historically interesting and have some beautiful, listed industrial buildings and lovely reservoirs.
I know of a mini scheme that was built in private grounds to provide ‘the big house’ with electricity.

David49

Casdon

There are a lot of hydropower stations in Wales too, we get plenty of rain to serve them. Generating power locally is something that a lot of communities are interested in, so there’s a bidding process for schemes.

The hydro in Wales is small scale, the water supply dams in Elan valley etc generate some, most of the rest is micro scale.
There are valleys that could be flooded but the locals wouldn’t like that, the same could be said about the Lake District or Yorkshire Dales.

If we relied on generating our own energy it would be pretty chilly in winter, small wind turbines are a non starter in built up areas, too much turbulence, solar + a battery is the best option for electricity but thats only part of your energy. For heating most use gas replacing that is the hardest part,

Wales is small scale David49? Isolated communities generating their power through hydro is one of the ways forward here. Why do you feel the need to be critical of these initiatives?

J52

Lathyrus3

Ah, that’s interesting. I looked it up - hope you don’t mind, I was interested.

There seems to be a push for lots of small local schemes. Have I got it right? Good for Scotland!

Yes, it’s a good idea to research it as there’s so much information, I couldn’t summarise it.
A lot of the schemes are historically interesting and have some beautiful, listed industrial buildings and lovely reservoirs.
I know of a mini scheme that was built in private grounds to provide ‘the big house’ with electricity.

Many big houses built their own hydro power when there was no grid a few have revived those schemes helped by the FIT and other schemes. Hydro is much more expensive to install than solar or wind.

Now, the new Wind, Solar and Hydro schemes don’t get a subsidy they have to generate at an economic rate, there are investment allowances which for businesses which make them viable.

I disagree with David49 on the difficulty replacing gas. All that is needed is to build nuclear power staions. The small packeged ones like those produced by Rolls Royce and othe companies, essentially based on the generators used in nuclear subs.

If the green taxes were removed from electricity and put on gas instead, the cost of both fuels would be similar and most people could then simply replace their gas boiler with an electric powered one, which for most people would cost well under £2,000, instead of the great expense and disruption of installing a heat pump.

The problem seems to be that governments want to go from our current state to net zero in one huge jump, when t could acctually be achieved much earlier if they would consider intermediate steps towards Nirvana.

Heat pumps may be perfection but on the way why not redistribute 'green' taxes, to make electricity cheaper, gas more expensive, so that cheaper electricity boilers or room heaters are a viable alternative on the journey to heat pumps for all, and install small scale nuclear fission until we have nuclear fusion.

I agree Monica cheaper electricity would be viable for everyone. Many mostly rural properties have electricity, but no gas. They mostly rely on oil or LPG which is very expensive.
Heat pumps are not easily installed for everyone property and those I know who have them have various opinions on their efficiency.

Whitewavemark2

Renewables give on average 40% of our total energy use. That is almost entirely wind and solar.

In contrast Norway gets nearly 99%of its energy from renewables. It has recently gone all electric. However their energy is largely from hydro, which I assume is more dependable than either solar or wind.

I wouldn’t be so quick at dismissing renewables, but I think nuclear must always be seen as a fall back unless technology can provide the means for it to be unnecessary.

But Norway’s population is tiny compared to the UK’s.

Pisting in total ignorance of heat pumps but with a question.

If lots of/mist people have ground heat pumps in the future, won’t that make the ground colder? And affect biodiversity in the soil.

I’ve looked and looked online but nobody seems to have done any real studies on the possible effects of sucking great quantities of heat out of the ground.

This is a good discussion - no politics yet (much)😬

Posting posting.. Oh dear…….

What concerns me most about using nuclear power is that currently Russia is fighting Ukraine by destroying their power stations.
What would happen here in the future if Russia decided to bomb/destroy our nuclear power stations? Would it not be very dangerous to have that nuclear power released?

Perhaps solar power, battery stored power used when there is no sun. I'm unable to work out why battery storage is not encouraged.

Ground source heat pumps need quite a large area of land Lathyrus so are not really suitable for today’s cramped modern developments. So it’s very unlikely that a lot of people will be using them. Most developers install air source heat pumps which take up little space and are apparently cheaper.

M0nica

I disagree with David49 on the difficulty replacing gas. All that is needed is to build nuclear power staions. The small packeged ones like those produced by Rolls Royce and othe companies, essentially based on the generators used in nuclear subs.

If the green taxes were removed from electricity and put on gas instead, the cost of both fuels would be similar and most people could then simply replace their gas boiler with an electric powered one, which for most people would cost well under £2,000, instead of the great expense and disruption of installing a heat pump.

The problem seems to be that governments want to go from our current state to net zero in one huge jump, when t could acctually be achieved much earlier if they would consider intermediate steps towards Nirvana.

Heat pumps may be perfection but on the way why not redistribute 'green' taxes, to make electricity cheaper, gas more expensive, so that cheaper electricity boilers or room heaters are a viable alternative on the journey to heat pumps for all, and install small scale nuclear fission until we have nuclear fusion.

The logical choice would have been to replace the coal fired power stations with Modular nuclear power plants, but logic is in short supply in the UK. The nuclear part might be quite small but they only generate steam so need turbines and a cooling system to operate. They need to be either coastal or close to a large river, rather more complex than a submarine surrounded by water.

Heat Pumps, ground source pumps do cool the soil but only in a small area, most are air source.

The modular nuclear units have only been market ready since the coal fired stations closed down and not all sites would have been suitable anyway.

Lathyrus3

Posting posting.. Oh dear…….

Most heat pumps are air sourced heat pumps. Ground sourced heat pumps require very large areas of open land are impractical unless you own an acre or so of land.

Thanks to those who answered my query. Ground source not really an option for most then.

I lived on an estate where the Housing Association built with Air pumps. The Winter bills were astronomical and after 3 years they had to install gas boilers instead.
This was about 10 years ago.

So how does the pump extract heat from low temperature air. I’ve tried to look this up too but all it says is something about a coil that heats the extracted air. An electric powered coil? So you need power from another source?

Lathyrus3

Thanks to those who answered my query. Ground source not really an option for most then.

I lived on an estate where the Housing Association built with Air pumps. The Winter bills were astronomical and after 3 years they had to install gas boilers instead.
This was about 10 years ago.

So how does the pump extract heat from low temperature air. I’ve tried to look this up too but all it says is something about a coil that heats the extracted air. An electric powered coil? So you need power from another source?

Only down to -5C below that they use electrical heating, so ground source is much more efficient but costs a lot more to install.
In urban areas a deep borehole would have to be used because there isn’t space for the near surface - 1 metre deep pipe work.
It’s only worthwhile if you have a well insulated house, ideally with underfloor heating, if you do use radiators they need to be much larger

Yes, an air source heat pump needs electricity to operate it.

M0nica

The modular nuclear units have only been market ready since the coal fired stations closed down and not all sites would have been suitable anyway.

RR are testing them but they are not market ready yet, existing sites have all the transmission infrastructure, if those are not suitable the the gas generating stations could be used but they still need a large water supply for cooling.

My guess it will be 20yrs before modular nuclear becomes a reality, currently Trawsfynnyd and Wylfa former nuclear sites are being developed as testing sites for the first modular nuclear generators.

Lathyrus3

Thanks to those who answered my query. Ground source not really an option for most then.

I lived on an estate where the Housing Association built with Air pumps. The Winter bills were astronomical and after 3 years they had to install gas boilers instead.
This was about 10 years ago.

So how does the pump extract heat from low temperature air. I’ve tried to look this up too but all it says is something about a coil that heats the extracted air. An electric powered coil? So you need power from another source?

A heat pump is just a fridge in reverse, a fridge circulates coolant through the air in the fridge to cool the it and then sheds the heat outside the fridge (hence that pipework grid at the back of the fridge.

A heat pump sucks heat out of the air outside and the heated air then sheds the heat in the house. It can extract heat from air down to temperatures of -5. After that you have to turn electric heaters on.

My feeling is that it is a complicated way of doing something that can be done just as effectively and much more cheaply by electric boilers and room heaters, we just need to move the green taxes from electricity to gas, so that the cost per Kw hour to the consumer is the same for both.

The best thing about air source heat pumps, I have found, is that they work with underfloor heating to dispense with the need for radiators and associated pipe work.

We shouldn’t expect big changes in the energy use in the UK any time soon because there isn’t enough generation capacity to replace gas.

According to OFGEM the average house uses 4 times as much gas as electricity, currently we are struggling to maintain that level of electricity, even doubling the capacity is a dream. It’s not a case of storage, that will not change anything.

Today renewables are generating 10% of our Electricity, gas + nuclear most of the rest with some import, that’s not counting the gas we use directly for heating, there is a mountain to climb to replace gas. We could conserve gas using it as a backup to nuclear and renewable which would mean a much easier target to achieve but still 50yrs development.

Barleyfields

The best thing about air source heat pumps, I have found, is that they work with underfloor heating to dispense with the need for radiators and associated pipe work.

I really do not like underfloor heating. We had it in a holiday house we rented in December. It made my feet too warm for my comfort, although DH was quite happy wth it.

Once the room is up to temperature it switches off, so the floor isn’t permanently warm. I have lived with it for about 12 years now throughout the whole house and have never found the floor uncomfortably warm.

Barleyfields

Once the room is up to temperature it switches off, so the floor isn’t permanently warm. I have lived with it for about 12 years now throughout the whole house and have never found the floor uncomfortably warm.

The floor was never uncomfortably warm. Everyone else with us was quite happy with it, and I did not find the temperature uncomfortable, but, while I do not like cold feet, I do not like my feet to be too warm and I kept wanting a nice cold tile (the floors were tiled) for the pleasure of the coolness on my warm feet.