That burkini!

Petra, it was school uniform that was spoken of not what women wore on New Years Eve . Have school children been assaulted ?

Anniebach. I suggest you read up on what the Muslim men did, and are still doing that warents women having to change their choice of clothing, where they go at night etc. And now Germany are bringing in women only carriages on trains.
If only it had been whistles and bottom grabbing on New Year's Eve in Cologne.
This is not only in Germany it's happening in Sweden as well.
Or have you joined the rest of the left wing feminist victim blaming brigade.

I don't agree that the burkini is 'just fashion'. Can't see any women other than those who feel it's a requirement of their culture wearing them (other than publicity-seekers such as Nigella!).

Our culture has moved rather quickly from a norm where some degree of modesty was required to a situation where more or less anything goes (other than nakedness)
Just over 100 years ago ankles were considered indecent, while massive amounts of cleavage were not. I remember in the late 50s a bikini was considered quite daring.
Current trends are driven by the fashion and porn industries.
But that's considered fine because it is the current norm, whereas more modest fashions are not.
My only concern about a requirement to cover up a lot is that is may be bad for fitness and for health. In extreme it may prevent healthy exercise. It will also cause vitamin D deficiency.
Other than that it is just fashion, and no more morally reprehensible than walking along the road wearing semi transparent leggings, no knickers and a skimpy low cut top.

I just don't understand why we want people to conform to what we consider is acceptable to us , I don't care what women wear, don't care if they dye their grey hair etc , don't care that some men chose to wear women's clothes , if not breaking the law then fine

In the same way the wearing of a crucifix or cross is not required by the religion but is a symbol of a person's faith? We would not want to ban that.

Wearing of headscarves is also cultural..and for that reason maybe the Western view of trying to make it dificult for women to do so is insensitive? If you have worn a type of clothing all your life is it helpful to suddenly have to change? I do not think Western women in the Gulf states change their style of dress.

I work as a volunteer in a school where pretty much all the intake is Muslim. Most of the girls wear a scarf, but there are a few who don't. I'm dying to ask why, but don't feel that I can. I'm not sure why: yet if one of the girls were to ask me why I wear a particular watch, a certain colour of lipstick or a style of earrings, I would feel obliged to reply.

Why do I feel uncomfortable about asking the question.

Just to point out...it has nothing to do with 'faith' it is entirely a culture matter.
Muslim women in some countries are required ( by the culture of that country) to dress in certain ways.Some will only wear a headscarf , other places different clothing.The only thing they have in common is being a Muslim.The full burka made a comeback thanks to the Taliban.

Yes it's possible they do but we cannot say they all do, I am sure some wear these clothes because they wish to and I can understand those who choose to defend their faith in this way, I would

I think most women who wear a burkha probably do so because of cultural /male pressure. However Hijabs are often actively chosen by women. I know several Muslim women who never wore a headscarf until there was the backlash of anti-Islam following terrorist atrocities. They then chose to stand up and out for their faith that they felt was being maligned by both terrorists and much of the media.

Is it not wrong to assume all Muslim women who wear a burka do so under orders of men?

Jane10 your big picture and mine are just very different I think!

It is already 'normal' for many Muslim women to wear coverup style clothing and therefore to avoid situations that require more exposure, e.g. swimming. By waering a 'burkini' I am suggesting it could , for some women, ' normalise' swimming in a public pool. I am certainly not suggesting it should be required dress for other women who are already comfortable in a swimsuit. That would be nonsense and I am sure this was not the intention..just M&S trying to increase its sales to Muslim women.

So I assume German men never ogle, whistle etc? . just Muslim men ?

Sigh again. We're never going to agree on this. I see big picture you see the smaller individual one. I'd refer you back to earlier posts on this forum presenting the feminist perspective. I don't see any point in reiterating how unpleasant a prospect the creeping normalisation of this attitude to women's bodies is. Goodbye.

I am curious about the change in uniform because of Muslim men, do these men look, do they whistle, do they grab bottoms,? What have they done to cause more modest uniforms ?

I didn't realise kids wore uniforms in Germany. I have said ,more than once, that all women need to be free to wear /do what they choose without pressure from men/society. I am suggesting that the so-called burkini is in fact an enabler not a blocker for some women.

What have these Muslim men in Germany done to force school girls into more modest uniforms ?

Sigh. My concern, as previously stated, is the potential for the creeping normalisation of the need for women to cover themselves up (again). Its not about swimming or accepting others etc etc etc. Its the bigger nastier picture. Already we've heard of schoolgirls in Germany being told to wear more modest uniforms due to the proximity of the large groups of Muslim men. Why should it be the girls that change? Why can't it be the attitudes of the men behind this? This is 2016.

A friend who married an Iranian once told me it is very tricky swimming in a headscarf!

It was jane10 who implied she would find women in an coverall cossie "odd" my reply was to her.

But of course it applies in all circumstances and no society /group is perfect or without their bigots/haters.

I suspect my Muslim friends would, like my non-Muslim friends, have a variety of opinions. My view is that if something makes activities accessible to someone then it can't all be bad!

I know some friends, who are Muslims, have reacted to the wave of Islamaphobia by being more obviously Muslim in their dress..as a sort of defiance to the hate they feel whereas another couple I know have 'westernised' further ( e.g. cut hair in a more Western style) to try to blend in to avoid the hate they worry will be targetted at them. Sad that people have to modify their lives in response to hate and ignorance.

Broad minds and accepting hearts should work both ways surely

Perhaps she should talk to them, so they could tell her why they want to cover themselves up. I'm pretty sure it's not because they feel they're 'special'...

I've been to swimming sessions with lots of Muslim women who wear ordinary swimsuits like us -little and large. No one looked twice at them. If they'd turned up in a burkini they'd be stared at at the very least. Women from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh have lived and integrated here for decades. This burka/burkini business is a relatively new thing. My Muslim friend is furious about it and refuses to talk to "these women who cover themselves up. What's so special about them?" She asked once. I couldn't answer her.

Oddness is in the eye of the beholder. Broadminds and accepting hearts can minimise difference...look more for similarities... a woman, a swimmer, a human being!