How safe is battery powered transport?

Petrol/diesel cars rarely spontaniously combust. EVs do.

DD worked in an engineering research centre and was involved in a project looking at the life cycle emissions from electric and petrol vehicles. Manufacturing the battery for an EV produced as much emissions as driving a conventional car 100,000 miles.

On ULEZ I do not understand the fuss. Two thirds of all cars on the roads in the UK are ULEZ compliant and ULEZ compliant cars have been available for years. I drive a 2013 car, and it is ULEZ compliant and ULEZ compatible cars have been available since the turn of the century. I previously owned a Toyota Yaris aand they became ULEZ compatible in January 2006,

So the heart rending tales of people being to poor to buy ULEZ cars, is untrue. If they can afford a car they will find plenty of old cheap ULEZ cars on the market.

It is a known risk with battery cars. But then petrol/diesel cars catch fire too

Last summer I went to Iceland on the 2 day ferry and electric cars were parked in a specific area of the ship - DH said it was to make fire fighting easier if one caught fire.

However I read an article based on a report from the Swedish Contingencies Agency (Crisis management) that stated that petrol/diesel cars are 20 times more likely to catch fire than electric cars or hybrid based on the number of fires/number of cars. However there were a few caveats based on the newness of the electric car category.

MadeInYorkshire
There is no argument that the earth is warming and has always done so. The huge problem is the rate that it is warming.
Personally I think we have passed the point of no return.

I wouldn't have an electric car if you paid me!

They aren't even environmentally friendly, as they use about 4 times more metal including rare earth metals. So there’s quite an environmental cost from that alone, and the rare earth metals that are used in them have to be mined

Both mining methods (drilling and leaching) produce mountains of toxic waste, with high risk of environmental and health hazards. For every ton of rare earth produced, the mining process yields 13kg of dust, 9,600-12,000 cubic meters of waste gas, 75 cubic meters of wastewater, and one ton of radioactive residue. This stems from the fact that rare earth element ores have metals that, when mixed with leaching pond chemicals, contaminate air, water, and soil. Most worrying is that rare earth ores are often laced with radioactive thorium and uranium, which result in especially detrimental health effects. Overall, for every ton of rare earth, 2,000 tons of toxic waste are produced.

Chine produces 85% of the need, and their miners no doubt will be expendable.

If you would like to read more ....

hir.harvard.edu/not-so-green-technology-the-complicated-legacy-of-rare-earth-mining/#:~:text=For%20every%20ton%20of%20rare%20earth%20produced%2C%20the,leaching%20pond%20chemicals%2C%20contaminate%20air%2C%20water%2C%20and%20soil.

More on electric cars blowing up!

edition.cnn.com/2020/11/10/success/electric-car-vehicle-battery-fires/index.html

*Merylstreep - I agree with you, and the people with the 'dirtiest cars' will be the most poorly paid, they will not have savings (even with the scrappage scheme they are likely to cost thousands) and like domiciliary carers, need their cars to be able to do their job. So in places where they they will be putting in ULEZ schemes, they are the people who will lose money whilst doing their job!

As for climate change - the other say it was reported on GMB that the extremely hot weather in Idaho (why are we reporting about Idaho) was killing people. This was posted on Twitter, and loads of people from the US, including Idaho, California and Arizona where coming back saying that it was absolute rubbish, and that this summer was the coolest they had had for some time! Yes, the climate has changed, but doesn't it always? It always has done and is natural?

twitter.com/PJW6466/status/1683210561087995905?s=20

twitter.com/benleo444/status/1680937820167307266?s=20

The question we should be asking is 'what's in it for them'?

Grannynannywanny

There was a Fire Service representative on BBC this morning discussing the increase in incidents of e-scooter batteries exploding and causing major house fires. Sadly some have resulted in fatalities. They showed some clips which had been caught on cctv of batteries exploding while on charge. The room was engulfed in flames and smoke within seconds. In the US safety measures are much tighter and batteries have to be independently checked before they can be fitted to e-scooters. No such safety checks exist in the UK and substandard batteries go unnoticed until it’s too late.

youtu.be/ld00r-tEEJ4

I saw that, unfortunately when money is tight folks will go onto the internet and buy the cheapest they can find.

There was a Fire Service representative on BBC this morning discussing the increase in incidents of e-scooter batteries exploding and causing major house fires. Sadly some have resulted in fatalities. They showed some clips which had been caught on cctv of batteries exploding while on charge. The room was engulfed in flames and smoke within seconds. In the US safety measures are much tighter and batteries have to be independently checked before they can be fitted to e-scooters. No such safety checks exist in the UK and substandard batteries go unnoticed until it’s too late.

youtu.be/ld00r-tEEJ4

The French factory should be in production in 2025.
www.euronews.com/next/2023/05/30/france-to-open-first-electric-car-battery-factory-in-bid-to-catch-up-with-china
China is the source of most of the lithium batteries in our phones and tablets.

China produces the majority if batteries for EV’s

Australia, Chile and China are the biggest miners of lithium (in that order)

The main winner in the race towards electricity/battery powered vehicles/everything is China, who is one of the Countries responsible for the most pollution. Some of this pollution is the result of producing batteries and EV cars…

I can't speak for the UK MOnica but there are certainly standards for battery production and safety in the EU.
I am sure you can understand my frustration when I read (for example) yet another comment saying that EV cars are heavier so there must be more pollution from brakes, given how regenerative braking is such a fundamental part of driving an EV and managing range. There is so much prejudice based on ignorance and propaganda from powerful vested interests.
If people own and drive EVs themselves then criticisms are fine. We certainly don't have any (apart from the Peugeot app). I guess we are lucky to be in France, where fast chargers are increasing all the time, there are financial incentives and schemes to increase the use of low-cost smaller EVs in cities and lithium mining and battery manufacture will take place within strict regulations.

Many of these points have been made on the thread about ulez.

I agree with the OP and the posts about the rush.

As mentioned in a previous thread. In the headlong rush to electric cars with all their faults, the development of synthetic fuels is being overlooked. If these could be produced then we could keep our current vehicles and not deplete the planet of the minerals currently being hoovered up to produce electric car batteries.

Hetty58
why the fuss about the rush
We are in a situation where too many people can’t afford to eat properly.
Can’t afford to heat their homes sufficiently in the winter.
Can’t afford fuel for their cars to get to work.
But.
We want you to buy a heat pump and pay for everything needed to support that system.
Buy an EV, why would you not, they’re as cheap as chips.
And, btw, we want you to do this Now
That’s my problem with the rush

Mamie There is clearly a concerted effort by vested interests to disseminate horror stories about EVs; most of which are easily debunked.

I am not one of this group, nor am I a Luddite. The dangers of batteries and explosions has been around since they were invented. This si why we still have no batteries that can store days or months supplies of electricity, even though that is the one key development necessary to truly exploit wind energy to the full.

Rather what is happeningis the revers of what you say. The danger of battery fires is underplayed. It is easy to make glib remarks about cheap batteries, and there are many out there, but why do we not have standards that batteries have to meet, so that such batteries are not used.

As I said I am not anti-electric cars, but as soon as I see a mad uncritical rush and support for anything, I know that there is going to be a disaster down the road. Nothing should be uncritically admired, nothing should be seen as a panacea, and I think this is what is happening to electric transport.

That the way ahead is electric I have no doubt, but I think there are many dangers in electric cars and it is well that we acknowledge them now and make sure we are prepared or them.

Mamie, exactly! I don't have a car - but I just love my solar panels. Right now (in summer) I produce about 15kWh per day - and use around 2kWh. I have no bill and I'm paid quarterly - nice! If/when I install a storage battery in the garage, I'll have no worries about it catching fire.

The common Luddite views in the media are quite a worry - when readers believe them.

Yes, I really do worry about global warming and air pollution. We must get diesels off the roads, and fast. It's awful that the government encouraged them (mistakenly or not). All that nitrogen dioxide (NO2) pollution can stunt lung development in children, making them even more susceptible to breathing problems.

Whitewavemark2

I am noticing more and more EVs on the road now, and almost 100% of new vehicles around my locality are EVs.

I am also noticing a good many houses with EVs are also sporting solar panels - so charging their car for free!

Hoorah!

France is installing lots of very fast chargers, under a roof for shade, with solar panels on top.

I have not seen any such reports Hetty58. Obviously you don't swap batteries in your car; I have faith in Peugeot and the specialist electrician who installed the charging point in our courtyard. We charge overnight to reduce demand on the grid and our running costs are about 5€ a week.
There is clearly a concerted effort by vested interests to disseminate horror stories about EVs; most of which are easily debunked.
We did lots of research before getting our EV and the huge advantage in our view is that after a maximum of two years to cover the environmental impact of production our car will cause nowhere near the pollution levels of ICE cars. We have grandchildren with asthma and regard air quality as very important for their health.

I am noticing more and more EVs on the road now, and almost 100% of new vehicles around my locality are EVs.

I am also noticing a good many houses with EVs are also sporting solar panels - so charging their car for free!

Hoorah!

Mamie, I had to do quite a search to find a genuine spare battery for the mower/strimmer. It's charged in a shed, though. I never charge my mobile overnight. Yes, of course, e-bike batteries need regulation (and fast) as there have been many fires.

Still, I really don't see how this applies to cars. You don't swap their batteries for cheap, imported ones. There is safety regulation. Most are charged outside anyway. Have there been any genuine reports of them catching fire?

Why the fuss about the 'rush'? We're in a climate emergency!

www.theguardian.com/news/2023/jul/27/uk-electrical-safety-charity-calls-for-e-bike-batteries-to-be-regulated

This article makes it clear that cheap batteries from dubious sources are to be avoided at all costs.

I am paranoid about going out or going to sleep and leaving anything on charge. Cars, with their big batteries, must be a worst case scenario. When will they be really safe?

Whether the material around the source of a fire is flammable or not, may dictate how bad a fire is, but it tells you nothing about how it started.

Regardless of this incident that triggered the thread, the fact still remains that batteries are, and always have been volatile and the more power in a battery the higher the chances of an explosion and fire.

There is no argument about the electric cycle battery that exploded and caused a fire that killed three people in a family and dreadfully injured a fourth

My Daughters car burst into flames , burnt down the garage , her Husbands car , and the central heating boiler
This was several years ago , so it wasn’t an electric car

electrek.co/2023/07/26/surprise-media-is-misreporting-the-source-of-a-dutch-cargo-ship-fire/
I have commented on another thread so just putting this here.

MOnica
That is my dilemma, the rush.

I have mixed feelings regarding EV’s wether cars, bikes or scooters.

The fire on the transporter is worrying.