Benefits Britain episode 7 -I'm speechless!

how far does that go Ethel, though? If someone gets a liver transplant, is it ok if they choose to continue to drink- for instance? Be it money, or transplants- whatever goes to one recipient, in a non endless pot- does not go to another.

granjura, this scenario happened to the ex husband of my friend,he was a heavy drinker and lived alone and they told him he could have a liver transplant if he could stay off alcohol for 6 months. He did at first and then started drinking, his attitude was that he would do what he wanted. He was found dead at the foot of the stairs with a broken neck, he'd been drunk and fallen downstairs. So probably he would have continued drinking even with a new liver. What Im trying to say is that we all have the right to live our lives the way we want, its not so much the length of life its the quality of our lives so if we want to throw it away with drink (personally I don't much like drink) or drugs etc then it is better to have a short life, happy doing what you want rather than a long life being unhappy. I sometimes think the NHS have the attitude that says, 'we will make you live longer, like it or not'.

As humans, in general we don't like being told what to do.

Having a liver transplant is not as easy as waving a magic wand. I thought people had to stay off the booze longer than six months. Why should all that work be wasted on someone who thinks they should live their life as they want ie fry ups and too much alcohol when there are people desperate for for a replacement kidney or liver who would respect the effort made for them to get well. I can't imagine it's easy peasy to replace hearts livers or kidneys for a surgeon to then find that their skill has been shown such disrespect. It's a two way agreement, an operation.

Just to back track - just come across this thread and am aware that I may reiterate what has already been said - etheltbags there is a huge difference between those people who are able to choose to live however they want, and those who, for various reasons or disabilities are NOT able to choose, yet have been placed in situations in which they cannot cope.

Ethel nobody is going to come to your home and tell you to clean up or check your fridge, I really dont know where you get these ideas from! What I was trying to say, was that some people are unable to look after themselves due to severe learning difficulties/mental illness and to my opinion it is cruel to just shut people in a flat with no proper support in their diet or living conditions. Of course, anyone of right mind, is able to live as they wish and as long as it is not a health hazard for any children or vulnerable people living in the household, or for neighbours, then it is not anyone's business. Not wishing to argue with you, but having watched Benefits Britain last night where people were struggling to feed themselves, I dont understand where this person you are talking about is buying art and taking holidays abroad. This is either a lie on his part, or he has undeclared income and is cheating the system.

ethelbags it's ok up to a point to say that people can live their lives as they want; drink to excess, smoke, overeat to the point of clinical obesity. But someone has to pick up the tab for their excesses. Sometimes it's from the Social Care budget, sometimes the police, most often the NHS.

These 'pleasures' they indulge in are not cost free.

An aquaintance of ours had many health problems most of them from diabetes.He was very overweight,as was his wife. Their pleasure at the weekend was to go out to a local pub for "the bellybusters breakfast".From the description it would have fed two of us for a week .
He had all his toes amputated through gangrene and didn't work for the last two years of his life which he spent most of in hospital.He was on dialysis and had a stroke and heart attack whilst in hospital.He died at the age of 53 and must have cost the NHS ie you and me countless thousands and in his case was a lifestyle choice.

where did I say someone would come to my house to check my fridge? or clean up. They would get short shrift if they did. If that's what social services do then they deserve the bad press they get, however I am not against advice. Im waiting for an op and if they nurses/workers giv eme advice then I will do my best to take it on board but it is my choice if I want to follow it.

Out of interest ethel if a health professional gave you good advice (I'm presuming here they wouldn't give you bad advice) why would you choose to ignore it?

Anya I would probably take the advice and stick to it but I reserve the right to ignore any advice if I choose. also, it is not black and white, good or bad, there are many things that area a matter of opinion. Its a matter of balance, we need to have a good life as well as being healthy.

In my oncology clinic they advise us with all sorts of stuff but they tell us to have a normal life too, so if they said don't shop from a dodgy takeaway, I would not (wouldn't anyway if a shop looked dirty) but if I really wanted a takeaway I would have one and hope it was ok.

My friend has really advanced cancer and she now does everything she likes as she doesn't care anymore, she has nights out and goes on the climbing frames with her grandchild etc even though she has been told not to. I hope this explains my opinion . Im not just being awkward

Fair enough

That applies fine to you, who can consider the advice and ignore it, and can make sensible decisions anyway about looking after yourself.

But not everyone has the ability to be independent. Some people just don't have the ability to look after themselves.

Some are older people slipping into Altzheimers with no family to help them, or youngsters with a mental illness that makes them neglect themselves - really neglecting, not just living on pizzas and chips - or people of very low mental ability who have not learnt the basics of independent living and have lost the parents who would have cared for them.

They really need the support of someone who can see if they are eating dangerously little and give them a nudge towards buying proper food or throwing out stuff with mould on it. Should they be left to become ill with malnutrition or food poisoning?

I agree with this but these people have social workers or are in care. Its the in between ones who are at risk. Those who are considered to be able to live on their own but are struggling but it is hard to find a line to draw where the nanny state is interfering or not.

Talking about mouldy food, my mother and also my friends dad both eat out of date food, cut the mould off bread and cheese etc and are fine. They both lived through the war and simply had to eat this stuff or starve. I can remember cutting mould off cheese as a girl. Both my friend and I are frustrated with these old dears but we cannot interfere.
My mother buys long life milk, dated for maybe 9 months and I cannot get it through to her that once its opened it must be used within a couple of days-to her it is ok for 9 months.!!! At the same time my mother runs 2 voluntary organisations, uses e mail, makes beautiful digital photos, is treasurer of one organisation and works for the local council. aged 80+. My friends dad goes out in his mobility scooter and both of them pay their bills regularly, run their own households and are not senile.
How did we manage during the war when most people had nothing and there were no interfering social workers ? we just had to manage.
We have become (as a nation) a load of incapable useless individuals who look to the state to provide when we have the slightest problem.

The state is made up of people from this gang of incapable useless individuals. Some of us must be ok.

ethelbags1 I really think it's very unfair to be so critical of social workers. They have a very difficult job and it seems that whatever goes wrong in society you can bet your life that social workers will be taking most of the flak for it. (and in case you're wondering, I am not a retired social worker).

Sadly, there are people in society who are not capable of managing entirely on their own, whether because of a learning or physical disability or physical or mental illness. You are very fortunate that your mum is not "senile" - the very many people with Alzheimers - and their families - are going through a hellish time and often with very little support. I think you are misinformed if you believe that everybody who is in dire need of help is "in care" or has adequate, or even any, support. The money and the staff are just not there to provide much more than crisis intervention.

Are the people who are looking after you with your cancer some of these useless individuals, ethel ? They are part of the nation you denigrate, as are you.

Health professionals don't always get things right and new research, new ideas constantly change the advice given out, so I think we are at liberty to ignore their advice or at least question it if we feel it is not right for us after due consideration.

Few medical staff have a knowledge of nutrition, for example, and I would ignore a lot of advice on diet doled out by GP surgeries.
There is more common sense and extensive dietary knowledge here on Gransnet!

Views on medicine are constantly changing, too, and the medical profession cannot always agree or may be swayed by incentives from drug companies.

So I would not take their advice willy-nilly unless I felt a trust in them.

I'm puzzled as to why you and your friend are frustrated with your respective 'old dears', ethel, when all they're doing is cutting the mould off bread and/or cheese and eating what's left! What's wrong with that?

Obviously it's not doing either of them any harm, given the activities you say they pursue.

On news tonight. Cardiff man jailed for benefits fraud after having been secretly filmed taking part in a 4 hour golf tournament, while claiming he 'couldn't walk more than 50yds without pain'
Ie mobility allowance.

I just wouldn't have the nerve - apart from not wanting to be dishonest.

I still cut mould off cheese and then eat it, although I do have a problem with Stilton, it is so fiddly. I do not eat supermarket bread so my bread goes stale not mouldy. I then put it in the freezer until I have enough to make bread pudding.

I think it is offensive to ever describe anyone as an 'old dear', it is dismissive and patronising.

My father lived to be 92. He lived independently, ran three organisations in his village, thought nothing of driving the 90 miles to visit my sister and myself and was as efficient and effective at running his life at 92 as I am of running mine in my early 70s. I would not have dreamt of supervising or checking on any aspect of his life or criticising it. He was an intelligent man with no mental problems and fully functional. He ran his life in a way that suited him. His age was irrelevant.

Your replies confuse me Ethelbags, and I am just not sure what you are saying. On the one hand you seem to say that it was OK for th NHS to refuse to give your friend who refused to stop drinking a liver transplant- and at the same time that the NHS (eg its doctors/nurses) has no right to give strong advice about other types of 'behaviour' which has a strong correlation to some illnesses and their treatment. So which is it?

If somenone has, say, lung cancer- to what extent should be receive expensive treatment, even a lung transplant- if they continue to smoke, for instance.

Not easy is it, as nicotine is so addictive. My young neighbour, 32, married to a lovely woman and with 2 lovely children, age 4 and nearly 3- had Hodgkins liymphoma, stage 4- he had loads of chemo and radiotherapy- and survived. He is so well now, back to normal- and he has started to smoke again- the odd roll'up at first, and now back on a packet a day. It is heart breaking.

Not to mention those non-smokers who get lung cancer.

Fortunately fairly rare- but in their case there would be no questions about whether to give lung transplant or not- unless there are other issues, be they 'behavioural' or health or both.

sorry to anyone offended by my expression 'old dears'. It was aimed at my mother and friends father to whom we are both at our wits end with their behaviour. How can anyone be offended at that? im not calling g netters 'old dears'.

I agree it is hard to decide what is ok to do to allow people their freedom to choose. I really find that my mother cutting mould off cheese is bad, there is plenty of fresh cheese in the shops. As people get older their immune system wears out making them vulnerable to infections.

however I also agree that we all have the right to live our lives the way we want to, so I suppose I must just allow my mother to eat out of date food, this is what she wants to do, I must let her risk her life gardening as she has a condition that means a tiny scratch could give her a life threatening illness and just keep silent. But I don't do that I try to point out where she is going wrong and suggest she wears trousers to protect her legs and gloves etc. This is better than a health professional interfering. We should all look after our own.

I would prefer my daughter advising me to do a certain thing rather than a social worker, if I was older and frail. I hope this is clear as I am finding it hard to express my thoughts on this one.