A very English Scandal

I was not telling anybody what to think but expressing an opinion in answer to the question posed, “are we judging JT from the recent TV series” so would you ever do respectfully please stop overreacting and nit picking everything I say.

(Still waiting for LWB mind you

Well I’m not judging JT by the TV series but by a great deal that I’ve read about the whole issue of gay rights and the hypocrisy of the upper classes during the struggle for gay rights not to mention Simon Hughes in 1983. How can ‘we’ be poorer for the loss of the upper class hypocrite JT? I rather think MB that some of us don’t need you to tell us that we need to distinguish drama/fiction and the dramatisation of fiction from historical fact and yes I guess many of us know that Shakespeare’s wasn’t always accurate.

Sorry Jalima -fat finger syndrome!

This is the danger Jalna rather like judging Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn from The Tudors or “Wolf Hall”.
We need to distinguish drama/fiction and dramatisations of fiction from historical fact. But unless you have studied the period most of us (me included) know the anecdotes better than the historical details.
In the same way Shakespeare handed down a whole version of English and Scottish history in his “historical plays” with very dubious historical accuracy!

Are we judging Thorpe by the recent tv series?

I wonder though Jalima if Thorpe had such a ruthlous and vicious streak in him to want to kill someone who was ‘getting in his way’ he could well have plotted against people who were stopping him in his quest to the top seat

We're all the poorer for what happened.

Jeremy Thorpe revitalised the Liberal Party which could have gone on from strength to strength had this not happened.

No, I can’t see Torpe or Profumo as any kind of a victim! Someone please convince me, I’m interested.
When homosexuality became legal I asked a discreet elderly homosexual friend what he felt. Having lived in the shadows all his adult life he answered in one word: ‘Bitterness’

I've still got one of mine somewhere.
Yellow with brown print, and the address changed so many times there was hardly any room.
It says:
'Exchange this for a new card during the week beginning --- at a local office of the DHSS.
On the back:
6. If the employee leaves, return the card to her (sic) stamped up to date. If there is some reason why you cannot return it to her, send it to the Department's local office with a note of explanation.

which is what should have happened with Norman's.

Well used to have one of those old cards which literally had stamps on them when I was working in the uni holidays. Of course I lost it - it didn’t matter a jot do either this was all made up or NS got fixated about it for some odd reason

I think his previous employer (at the stables) had the NI card and Norman left in a hurry to go with Jeremy Thorpe.

Please note that I am saying I think

Was the NI issue linked to Scott’s name change?

He must have had a NI number to have had a NI card - so that all seemed a bit odd.
I can't remember when they stopped using the cards. I don't mean the red and blue cards, I mean the old-fashioned ones which were in use in those days, yellow I think, which were stamped.

Of course all gays were wrongly treated BUT not all gays were plotting to kill their lovers to keep themselves from trouble Thorpe was only a victim of the time as many with differences have been, the mentally ill, those with learning difficulties or disabled or the poor caught stealing a loaf, ethnic minorities in the ‘wrong country’ They were all treated dreadfully compared to today’s standards, they don’t all engage in.murder to save their skins I don’t have an ounce of sympathy for him

Am I missing something?
Norman Scott wanted a National Insurance Number, why he didn't have one, who knows. JT promised to get him one but never did and this fuelled Norman Scott, who in the following programme says he still doesn't have a NIN.

Was it not possible for Norman Scott to go to the local Dept. Health & Social Services Office, or CAB, advise he didn't have a NIN and ask for help/direction to sort a NIN?

I’ll never forgive or forget the election where Simon Hughes fought a filthy campaign against Peter Tatchell who was openly gay - especially as SH came out later. That’s hypocrisy of a grand order

JT had choices - it does rather reduce ones claim to be a victim. Of course the law was wrong.

Was Jeremy Thorpe a victim? I suppose he was a victim of the homosexuality laws of the time.
But he was pretty ruthless and unscrupulous in his treatment of Norman Scott and his underlings who were expected to kill Scott or find a hitman to do it. They were all Thorpe’s victims.
The police cover up was rather glossed over.
An excellent dramatisation of this murky story from the political past even if they did make light of serious issues. Potentially award winning acting from Hugh Grant.

No because generalisations don’t mean everyone but what’s more likely - the law has always been k8nder to tge upper classes - for one thing they had the money to access it and the connections, if you look at the courts now post legal aid cuts, it’s the less advantaged who are losing out

maryeliza54, don’t you think it’s just as wrong to generalise about upper class people as it is to generalise about lower class people? I do.

Of course he shouldn't have to give up his job ...but if he had he could have lived the life he wanted ,without all the cloak and dagger stuff.I have relatives who are gay and have worked with and for several gay men over the years .One in particular who married and had SIX children .He still had his affairs though I dont think his wife was aware of them and certainly his children didn't know he was gay .Its how it was in the late 60's and early 70's ,we can be happy that no one has to live a lie nowadays

Agree trisher and JT and other upper class closet gays stood idly by whilst ordinary men were entrapped and imprisoned. Typical upper class I’m all right Jackerry

There is no doubt that it was illegal to be gay when Thorpe first began his liason with Scott. However when the case came to court it was no longer illegal. Thorpe chose not only to lie about his involvement but allowed a man who had been his friend and supporter (even if a bit of a dodgy individual) Bessel to be humiliated in court. If he was a victim he undoubtedly victimised others far more than he was.

Well yes I see. It was a terrible time to be gay. They went through a lot.

No brickbats from me Jalima . Just curious to know in what respect you think Thorpe was a victim?
A victim of the times I think KatyK - when he had to deny and supposedly try (and failed) to suppress his sexuality. It's shocking to think that it was such a short time ago relatively speaking. I also think that, hearing that he had several extremely short liaisons and that the relationship with Norman Scott lasted for a longer period of time, that he did love him in a way but knew that his career, his life, his marriage would be ruined if it became public.

Sadly all in vain. I was surprised to hear Norman Scott state in the interview the ways in which the conspirators planned to 'do away with him'. The ideas sounded quite ludicrous - drop him from a helicopter into the Everglades, drop him down a tin mine in Cornwall - and these ideas sounded so far-fetched that one is left wondering if, in fact, Thorpe really wanted to kill him or just wanted him to go away and keep quiet and others took the idea and went with it. Bessell was not the most trustworthy character imo.
Without the NI card/number how has Norman managed to work since and how is he maintaining his lifestyle, albeit a simple one? I hope he has been helped, is living peacefully and that this latest tv series and subsequent publicity has not upset his equilibrium.