Womans Hour

Well, we both have had a post removed, so I am sure you will now feel equal. Mine, which pointed out briefly what you had just posted - ^personally and abusively^- about me and why I wanted it removed has also gone, while yours telling in detail how hurt you felt at my criticism is still there, so the evidence for the future is a little skewed.

So be it.

Now back to good-tempered discussion of the subject in hand.

I felt bullied and harassed but as usual with this site, the clique moves in. Is it any wonder that people endlessly report that they are afraid to post because of how some older members behave.

Shall I tell the truth then? Shall I admit that I felt just as put down by E's posts as she intended. That I burst into tears several times and felt bullied and deeply upset. That my husband persuaded me to stand up for myself and I tried. Well OK, I am driven away. Going to delete my account now. How very clever some people are, they post and stay just the right side of needling. I tried AND I reported one of those posts but HQ said it was apparently within the guidelines. I am clearly stupid, ineffectual, inarticulate, better off on my own as I usually am. I should have known better than even try to interact. You'll never hear from me again. No wonder people leave this site.

Thanks for the link PECS, this was a new one for me and I've signed up.

Been away so not read all previous posts.. has anyone mentioned the Craftavist movement?

craftivist-collective.com I have been to a couple of workshops.. They are very interesting.

Thanks to base control for removing the post that should never have been posted.
Did anyone hear the WH article this week about the growing interest in Crafts and traditional women's pursuits? It was very interesting and I found myself wondering whether they could usefully include some of the posts on this thread.

Shame on you Azie for the dementia comment, it was an interesting debate before that comment. Well said Elegran.

It's so sad that this thread has turned quite nasty with some uncalled for comments.

Azie09 - I've reported the post in which you suggest Elegran needs to see her GP.

Message deleted by Gransnet as it repeats what has been said in the one above that we had to delete.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I dislike sweeping statements about an entire mixed group of people.

However, I wouldn't say that my penultimate paragraph was sweeping in mentioning that occasional posters make those sweeping statements about Gransnet and condemn the whole shebang and the whole membership because of the views of some.

Ah Elegran, you mean you object to sweeping statements rather like the last paragraph of your penultimate post. Touché or are we simply on the same page?

And just as in any real-life conversation, it is not a good idea to accuse all your fellow-conversationalists, whatever they have posted, of being ~"a bunch of . . ." (add whatever the opposite view is to your own) unless your intention is to turn the conversation into a confrontation.

Crikey, glad I didn't add the last post or I'd have been accused of chastising the whole of Gransnet!

Isn't the point that a thread is a conversation and just like Woman's Hour, there will be a variety of views on a spectrum? Some very reasonable points have been made in this thread and as many have pointed out, no one is saying Woman's Hour shouldn't carry items on jam making etc which indeed they do. One should also remember that so-called traditional pursuits may now no longer be confined to the female arena but are enjoyed by many men, perhaps in a transgender world, it is odd to suggest activities are for one gender or another.

As to feminist battles being won, isn't that a rather limited view?
eg, www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-uk-losing-billions-year-gender-pay-gap-workplace-discrimination-figures-report-a8161691.html

And websites such as Everyday Sexism wouldn't exist if young women weren't still regularly faced with harassment from men.

That was my point, Iam, and I think the point that the OP and most posts since have made. In real life, there is not a sharp division between "The world as it is" and the softer "feminine" interests.

However, there is an occasional poster who thinks that asking for a balance in the media is the same as burying our collective heads in the sand and chanting, "All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds," and likes to chastise the whole of Gransnet for it.

I think the days when crochet, knitting, embroidery and jam making were seen as undermining the feminist cry for equality in law, are long passé Elegran. The rad fems I knew who were involved in the ‘ fight’ 30 - 40 years ago are all in our local craft groups. We remain politically active but have given ourselves the space to take up these traditionally female pursuits

I have no issues with those who are fighting today's battles, the ones in the rarer pockets of differentness who were bypassed by the original campaigns for equality for women in general to work in occupations previously considered men's domain, to have control of their own money, to have a legal identity which wasn't as an appendage to a father or husband. Those battles are mostly won, though as always the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Closing loopholes and converting the reactionaries still has to go on.

But this thread is about the tendency of some people (and some institutions) to be po-faced about the position of women in society, to want life to be only about a struggle against the world on some cause or other, and to ban any of the softer female interests - the ones which used to be the only "womanly" things that women were supposed to care about, and now, apparently, are the ones which they are supposed to scorn. Will the pendulum have to be reversed and women have to fight to be allowed to make jam without condemnation as a sex traitor?

Elegran, thank you and bravo! Well said. You speak for me and I suspect many like me who are fully conversant with women's issues, who blazed the trail in the 60s, 70s and 80s and brought our daughters up to believe in themselves, whilst working, keeping house and being aware of what was going on in the world.

We were feminists who appreciated that life wasn't just about screaming for our rights or feeling marginalised. WH has, unfortunately, been a huge turn off for a while, focusing now mainly egotists promoting themselves, their worlds and their need to be recognised. I abhor the me, me, me generation that crave publicity. Many of the people now given air time on WH unfortunately fall into that category.

Elegran utterly true and eloquent. Thank you ?

I don't know what planet you're on Elegran but you seem to be on a soapbox all of your own making. Try reading my posts. I don't have a quibble with the points you are making but you are a good example of why many won't post on GN.

I am glad you have plenty to do too. So will the many Brexit no-voters and climate non-deniers on gransnet and the many who go on protests and marches and lobby their MPs but still have time to do plenty of other things.

Do they have to give up all creative hobbies (painting. kitting, dressmaking, writing) and all inessential cooking (jam, cake, unusual recipes) to prove that not a minute of their time is wasted, that they spend every second of their lives toiling for the freedom of women to do what they want? To the point where no woman remembers the skills to do all those things that are not part of fighting for the freedom to choose to do them? If they can't choose, what the hell were they fighting for?

People are three-dimensional, with many aspects. No need to rattle the bars to prove that you are alive, just do your living and let others do theirs

Elegran thanks for the lecture. Does it ever occur to you that sometimes one reads the posts on here and plays devil's advocate or just thinks that someone needs a boot up the proverbial? Or gets tired of opinionated posts and decides to reply in kind? Or thinks the site is full of threads by the same people (oops, mustn't say cliquey) so why not rattle the bars? Loosen up for heaven's sake, I still think it's amazing that after such an opinionated, uncaring and thoughtless original post, I get attacked!! Glad I've got plenty to do with my time......

Azie Do you really believe that Gransnet consists of just "A bunch of Brexit Leave voters and climate deniers." ? You must be very selective in which threads you read, and which posts on those threads. There are opinions, attitudes and interests across the whole range held by women of all kinds of political, educational, social and personalities from from all over the country. Most of them are not here only the serious political and social stuff, they
also read and enjoy the trivial and frivolous subjects too.

Just as a national Radio programme called "Woman's Hour" is listened to by women of all kinds of political, educational, social and personalities from from all over the country, most of whom enjoy trivial and frivolous subjects too. Saying that they would like more of the lighter items in among the heavier ones doesn't make them flibbertigibbets who only want to hear about cosmetics and pop music.

What a relief to see some positive comments about Women's Hour on this thread. I'm with PECS and crystaltipps, whose comment "can't believe some smug people on here saying all women are fine and shouldn't moan about anything".

No one forces you to listen to WH - if I'm not finding a topic under discussion interesting, I may hop over to Radio 5 live if their phone in is topical and interesting. I like Jane Garvey, respect Jenny Murray and enjoy listening to Weekend Woman's Hour on Saturdays - it coincides with my drive home from a regular Saturday Thing.
I have felt challenged and had my understanding of some issues relating to transgender improved by some recent WH articles.
It never ceases to interest me the way in which 'what about the men' and 'I've never experienced sexism/oppression/domestic abuse' etc is so often the response to anything aimed at highlighting women's 'issues'.