Inside Europe

Like you Urmstongran I love Europe. In our serous travelling days with the motohome we visited every country including Albania and Macedonia.
But, the eu is not Europe.
I might sound naive, but I feel we will go back to trading partners, after a while

I agree Luckygirl, I wish that the EU could have remained a trading block, as it was in the first place. I voted to remain all those years ago with such enthusiasm as it seemed such an economically sensible arrangement, what could go wrong?!! I now find 40 years along the line that what it has become, I could never have agreed to, and can't now! This makes me not only disillusioned but deeply sad. I always wanted us to have the closest and most amicable arrangement with Europe as an individual country, but I certainly don't want to be part of a federal state, run by Europe!

That’s a nice way to think about it Luckygirl

We have an apartment here in Manchester and 15y ago bought an apartment in Malaga & split our time between the two places. We speak a little Spanish, have made Spanish friends and enjoy being a part of Europe.

I just don’t like the EU.

I am torn - I feel sad that we are leaving in many ways; but also recognise that the whole project is so unwieldy and unmanageable now and is having to break their own laws to muddle through. I feel we were never really full members - always carping from the sidelines. Like a breaking marriage it is maybe better that we part - and try to stay good friends after dealing with the pain that a break-up entails.

I posted it was last in the series. Apparently there are 2 more episodes to go.

It was heartbreaking watching Angela Merkel struggle with her inner turmoil. Coming from Eastern Germany she found the ideas of borders abhorrent. And when she gave that teenage girl a hug saying she recognised she had been through so much and didn’t want to make her life any more difficult I really admired her.

However the Balkan states that form the edges of the EU felt they were being hung out to dry (plus Italy) and the splits and factions within the EU were apparent. The Duch & Germans met with Turkey to thrash out how to deal with the huge problem of mass immigration. Then the whole 28 ‘took’ a vote and went with a majority vote! - so they do bend the rules when it suits (no wonder Donald Tusk what furious ‘it’s not who we are’)

Horsetrading on a grand scale.
Great post Luckygirl and I’m with you. The whole set up of the EU is too big, unwieldy and rotten (no auditing of accounts etc). One big vanity project for the ideologues.
Glad we’re leaving next month.

Luckgirl
Very good post.
but the flaws need to be faced because they are leading to a right-wing backlash
More or less what George Soros said in a speech yesterday.
The program showed that they are like rabbits in the headlights when faced with a huge problem.
Everyone knew that those refugees were massing in turkey. Where did they think they were going to go: all the intelligence told them where: Europe!!
No surprises from me RE Merkel. As I've said before: Germany say jump, they all say how high.
The only person that surprised me was Donald Tusk with his reaction to Merkel and Rutte 'negotiations' with Turkey.
It did prove, though, that we are not all in it together.

Good post Luckygirl.

Final programme last night was again riveting. And chilling.

Most chilling was Merkel bypassing the EU rules when negotiating with Turkey.

Each episode as affirmed my concern that the EU is unmanageable at this size. The genuine concern for the immigrants from Merkel and others was heartening, but they were forced into agreements and held to ransom by Turkey - a country that they are considering including in membership; one that does not share the ethos of many of the other EU countries. The Turkish PM was devious and thoroughly creepy.

The sense that we are all in this together and need to pull together to share burdens (as the mass immigration undoubtedly was) was shattered into individual national interests - this is inevitable as the country leaders have their votes to consider. The UK (in the form of TM) was very clear that they could not share in the immigration policies (wanted to bypass the EU policy by taking direct from the camps) - and this is understandable as a much smaller country who has always negotiated itself onto the periphery of EU.

The emergence of the EU was founded on a genuine desire to unite Europe and to try and prevent conflict; but it has finished up too large and too expansive in its aims. It is sad really - but the flaws need to be faced because they are leading to a right-wing backlash that none of us want. A looser arrangement that is less all-encompassing in its political and military aims is what is needed. Sadly this could be forced on them in the end by the backlash that is developing. But the path will be bloody.

What a shame that the EU could not just have been happy with a common market.

Watching this!!!

Last episode of 3 in the series tonight - it’s on BBC2 at 9pm.
It’s about the EU and immigration.

Indeed petra I read that too. - Germany did very well out of that debacle.

Let's not forget that Germany earned €2.9 billion between 2010-2017 on the Greek debt.

Prices always go up with a change in currency, I remember when we changed from £sd, prices soared immediately.
The same happened all over Europe with the euro.
France and Germany contribute most which is maybe why they appear more powerful, but all have their vote, however much or little they pay.
It’s my understanding that tax avoidance in Greece was commonplace, not everyone of course but too many. Borrowing and high living was rife and a country can’t carry on like that forever.
Germans don’t generally borrow or go into personal debt (credit cards not accepted in most places and just try finding an ATM even in the biggest city) yet were paying the lions share of further loans to Greece. It was a hard sell for Merkel and it was only when Greece were told to leave if they didn’t like the conditions for further loans that they changed their minds as they wanted to stay in the EU.
I found the programme fascinating.

And some posters wonder why we voted to leave.

Granygravy
We were house hunting in Greece at the time they joined the euro. As you say the increase in prices was awful.

A bit of an eye opener to say the least. France and Germany definitely hold all the aces in this club. Glad we didn't join the euro or we would be in a worse position than we are now. Hopefully in a few months we will be onlookers from the outside grateful the dirty deeds aren't being done to us.

I am delighted we never joined the euro currency. It’s hard enough trying to extricate ourselves as it is.
Roll on 29 March.

We've got this recorded and it could easily have fallen through the net so I'm glad I've read this thread!

Yggdrasil, aren't we fortunate not to be part of the Euro.

UK still has a strong economy despite the doom and gloom predictions of us not joining the Euro.

The Euro has been a disaster for Greece and not particularly successful for the Mediterranean States. I lived in Spain when the Euro came into force, the prices increased overnight hitting the poorest as alway.

Exactly - in both episodes it has been obvious who is running the EU. All negotiations go through the French and German leaders and then they trot off back to the rest to rubber stamp it. That is wholly unacceptable - it really is. Why do the rest sit back and let this happen? I wonder how often they exercise their veto; and why they do not insist that the negotiating teams should be spread amongst all the members.

This is why I voted against the common market all those years ago - I just felt that the whole thing would be too unwieldy to work in a fair and democratic fashion.

I was appalled while watching last night's programme. Sarkosy was behaving like a petty dictator. Really chilling.

GG Those two countries have the strongest economies. If the Euro has to be saved it is down to them. It would have been the UK too if we had been in the Euro, we and France and Germany were the strongest in the EU.

I agree GG.
I felt so sorry for the Greek people.
Scary how government ministers and economists have completely different agendas.

Watching this last night (4/2), it appeared to me that Germany and France run the EU, and they intend to keep it that way.

just watched episode 1 on catch up. We did not seem to have any idea of how to get on with Europe and how to negotiate - maybe a hang over from our days of Empire when we just told everyone what to do! What a mess we made of it all! Party before the good of the country. Wonder if anybody at that stage did any sort of report on the effects of leaving the EU? Perhaps we shall find out tonight?

I watched this programme yesterday, found it extremely interesting and am looking forward to the next two episodes. It showed how naive and out of his depth David Cameron was. It really was a mistake to oppose the election of Barnier and it all went downhill from then.

Ha! That really made me laugh merlotgran.
I agree, it’s a very revealing insight into how we got here.