Polly Toynbee.

Witzend

Presumably because they are seen as a privilege that most people can’t afford. Even the least academic schools will typically have rather smaller classes so that less bright children, or those who struggle will - or ought to - get more help than they would at a standard state school.

That is all true, but the motivation for wanting them gone (although this will vary between individuals) may not be because those with money get more help, but that by definition those without get less. And worse, that there is tax relief on this advantage. If there is ever to be equal opportunity we have to start with education being equal.

Witzend

maddyone

In 2021 The London Oratory sent eighteen students to Oxbridge. Bog standard? I think not!
Blair chose The London Oratory because it was a good school. It was justified because it was a Catholic school. It was also an extremely good school that got/gets more students into Oxbridge than many minor independent schools.
Is it being argued that the reputation of The London Oratory had absolutely nothing to do with the Blair’s choice? And that it was a Catholic school was the reason?

Hardly surprising if it got more into Oxbridge than many ‘minor’ independent schools.

Plenty of minor independents will take virtually anyone whose parents are willing to pay the fees. Independents that are known for academic excellence (or at least for reasonably respectable GCSE and A level results) usually select pupils by exam, and possibly by interview, too.

As I said up thread , my husband's older grandchildren at some stage went to The London Oratory, and it's sister school, so I have a little knowledge of it, certainly as it was then. It is a very strict school, pupils have to toe the line, if they didn't, parents would be summoned and they would be told in no uncertain terms how over subscribed they were, and if they didn't obey the rules they would be out. My younger son and his "niece" are pretty much the same age give or take a year or two, so they were doing A levels around the same time. When granddaughter went into the mixed sex 6th form at The London Oratory, pupils were expected to wear full school uniform complete with blazer. My son thought that was the absolute pits, he was slouching around in baggy jeans and trainers at the time. When they had a conversation about that, he said something like "I'd hate to be togged up in that uniform in the 6th form" her reply was "I don't give a damn! I just want this school to get me to where I want to be going" and it did she went on to get a first in maths at a Russell Group university. Possibly it could be argued that such a school emulates the best of the private sector, because I know and my son would retrospectively agree now that a lot of comprehensives let their pupils coast. Our children's comprehensive would be regarded as a well above average in a leafy, affluent area, and in fact in younger son's year, 4 pupils into Oxbridge, but their achievements were very much in spite of the school, not because of it. In many ways if fell short of the standards and rigour demanded by for example The Oratory which would no doubt be regarded as elitist by some, in fact 25% of its intake came from lower income demographics.

Thanks for your answer Witzend. Personally I don’t have a problem with that. People can spend their money however they like. Some choose holidays, others might choose an independent school.

Presumably because they are seen as a privilege that most people can’t afford. Even the least academic schools will typically have rather smaller classes so that less bright children, or those who struggle will - or ought to - get more help than they would at a standard state school.

What a nasty woman!

So why all the fuss about independent schools Witzend? Why the wish to abolish them? Or tax them out of existence?

maddyone

In 2021 The London Oratory sent eighteen students to Oxbridge. Bog standard? I think not!
Blair chose The London Oratory because it was a good school. It was justified because it was a Catholic school. It was also an extremely good school that got/gets more students into Oxbridge than many minor independent schools.
Is it being argued that the reputation of The London Oratory had absolutely nothing to do with the Blair’s choice? And that it was a Catholic school was the reason?

Hardly surprising if it got more into Oxbridge than many ‘minor’ independent schools.

Plenty of minor independents will take virtually anyone whose parents are willing to pay the fees. Independents that are known for academic excellence (or at least for reasonably respectable GCSE and A level results) usually select pupils by exam, and possibly by interview, too.

I’m not blank in my views. I’m simply surprised that such a level of anger, vilification can be reached about someone like Toynbee. She’s a journalist, paid to express views. I find some right wing journalists views abhorrent but can’t imagine describing them as ‘vile’ human beings

I’d be very interested to hear what Ms Toynbee thinks will replace the constitutional monarchical system of this country. A republican system with a ‘democratically’ elected President? And all the political in fighting, corruption and elitism that exists in many such countries which purport to follow the voice of the people. Resulting in a Trump perhaps or a Putin? No system is perfect and many divide rather than unite as a monarchy attempts to do. Quite honestly, I’d be more interested in the views of a historian such as David Starkey or Simon Seborg Montefiore than in this strident and somewhat biased woman.

Indeed no. For instance I formed a judgement on Liz Truss - that she was misguided and not competent to be the prime minister. But I did not feel the need to vilify her as a person.

There is no problem with people making the judgement that Meghan found royal life a problem and expressing disappointment that things did not work out; but that does not mean she should be vilified. We do not know her. We do not know what problems she is contending with.

How on earth do you get by in life never reaching any judgment on anyone unless you know them in depth.

Polly Toynbee is a journalist - and a prolific one. She writes lots of opinion pieces. Of course you can get a feel for the person from what they write. If you have any sensitivity and intelligence you read what is written by people, of people, and their behaviour and listen and sift and compare and contrast, and reach 'on balance' conclusions about them.

How boring life must be if you see everyone who is not a personal friend or relation as being just as blank as a one dimenional photograph.

Does your blankness extend to saying we can know nothing about Boris Johnson, or Donald Trump because we do not know them, I won't say 'intimately', it could be misunderstood, but not well enough for them to be on your Christmas card list (Oh, I know, you do not send Chrustmas cards, you donate to charity) well enough to be texting them.

Luckygirl3

I see her as a fellow human being whom I do not know and am not in a position to pass judgement on, let alone vilify.

Totally agree Luckygirl ditto so many others that I’ve never met but vilified by the certain factions of the media. Are we sheep?

Luckygirl3

I see her as a fellow human being whom I do not know and am not in a position to pass judgement on, let alone vilify.

Well said Luckygirl

Maddyone, I watched the coronation and reached a similar conclusion. King Charles seemed absolutely genuine in his faith and commitment to his role responsibilities and duties. A very touching moment when William played his significant role. Prince George fully involved as Paige boy, absorbing the momentous occasion and his future responsibilities. I was watching with friends (yes, left leaningGuardian reading types). We all shared similar views, particularly the who could be a better, less politically compromised HoS.

I see her as a fellow human being whom I do not know and am not in a position to pass judgement on, let alone vilify.

Anyone that doesn’t see Megan for what she is, needs their heads examined. No wonder the Guardian is struggling.

I'm just a bystander/observer from across the pond, but from what I have seen, it was a beautiful and very elegant ceremony. I hope the Royal Family goes on forever, and I say this as an Irish woman whose family came from County Mayo, to America during the Potato Famine. I disagree that Harry would have made a great addition. He could have, if he had wanted to make a great addition, but he's never gotten over himself. Frankly, I don't think Megan helps. I think she has contributed to his sadness and his unwillingness or inability to fit in. From the very get-go, I have laughed at people who implied any kind of racial bias with regard to Meghan. She doesn't look black, she doesn't dress in any iconic or typical ways that have been made famous in the black community. I've never seen her in any African cultural attire . She is absolutely classic western grace and beauty on the outside. What would a racist person use as a reason to discriminate against her? But what I do disagree with is her attitude. I think she really thought she was a princess, and I think she had a rather outdated view of how princesses behave.

Yes, I did think she might be right but I've changed my mind.

I agree, maddy.

After today I honestly think a republic is a long way off, even if it is more democratic. Today’s pomp and circumstance (wasn’t it marvellous?) will have sealed the fate of the monarchy in a good way. They will not be going anywhere judging by the responses of the crowds, the comments on Gransnet, and everyone else. I would like to live to see William crowned but I probably won’t. Polly Toynbee hasn’t a chance in …… of her wish coming true any time in the foreseeable future.

I still think a republic is more democratic, but what we’ve got isn’t so bad after all.

They were thinking of becoming a Republic in Australia I believe. A lot of talk and then it was kicked into the long grass as nobody could think who they might have instead as head of state.
IMHO the royal family do some good and are too dim to do any harm.

Think today proves that 25 years (just a year less than the death of Diana in 1997) is a relatively short time, and if today is anything to go by, George will be crowned King George V11, albeit a much slimmed down, more modern monarchy.

Polly Toynbee will be proved wrong. Her statement is simply wish fulfilment. The Royal Family will endure simply because it is a better alternative to a politically appointed/elected President. Look around the world and you will not be impressed by most Heads of State! My political views are left of centre but my opinion still holds.
As for Megan somehow being a potential saviour of the RF, I cannot see it myself. If you actually look at what she declares are her guiding principles and then at her actions, she shows herself to be a first class hypocrite. Ditto Harry.

Hmm Polly Toynbee, well known journalist. She has an axe to grind and she's wrong.
I've been thinking today about 2 countries that deposed their monarchs in 1918 and the dreadful consequences...

GrannyGravy13

paddyann54

I'm hoping they'll all be shown the door a lot sooner than 25 years .What DOES it take to get the blinkers off about these parasites ?

Once you call human beings parasites you have lost the argument Paddyann54

Quite right GrannyGravy13. According to Paddyann54’s reasoning everyone who receives a payout from the state are parasites. And the RF actually work very hard well beyond state retirement age. Numerous charities befefit from royal patronage, not least the Princes Trust which supports young people in their business ventures, when otherwise they would never have had that opportunity.

The RF technically could claim all of the income from Crown Lands, but they don’t. It is all handed over to the government in exchange for the Sovreign Grant. The RF are wealthy but so are Rishi Sunak and a good proportion of MPs. I bet the RF pay more tax than Boris Johnson, Cameron et al with their offshore accounts.
Then there is the £5.5 + millions in tourism income that the RF bring in to the treasury.
I don’t think the RF are the ones with blinkers, Paddyann54

M0nica

I always thought she was a total prat.

Me too.