The MET are investigating the Post Office and Fujitsu

I just cannot believe that no-one in the Post Office management did not see (or refused to see) the connection between the installation of a computer system and the sudden rise in the numbers of subpostmasters and mistresses who suddenly became thieves!!

It really does beggar belief.

Our own local sub-postmaster and family suddenly disappeared, no-one knew why and there were mutterings of wrong-doing. They hadn't been there for very long. I wish I could find out if they're all right.

MaizeD I dont know if you saw the drama doc. Or the follow up program, but at least one of the accused Spm's investigation team cleared her of theft.

I've been following it for a long time, Namsnanny. I saw the drama and the follow up documentary.

The point I was making about the investigators was that before Horizon was installed it would have been easier for them to investigate a possible case of fraud because there would have been a paper trail at the PO branch for them to follow. There was nothing once Horizon was installed. Investigations would have been easier, (and probably much fewer).

This doesn't excuse what they did afterHorizon, but the lack of a paper trail and the proliferation of cases must have made investigation more difficult. I was just wandering off on a bit of speculation, really...

Someone from Computer Weekly was interviewed in the documentary following the ITV docu-drama.

Private Eye also picked up this story but I don't think they pursued with it. Also the Eye has a bit of reputation for not being completely accurate with their stories. I know this from a friend's experience although I won't elaborate further as it's not my story to tell.

Oreo

Glad the Met are investigating, better late than never.The point of the investigation is where all the money paid back by the SPM’s went, when there was no actual money missing, just wrong numbers churned out by Horizon.Fraud in other words.

But the Met can't even sort themselves out!

but no doubt the investigators did better before computerisation, when there was a paper trail ....
MaizeD I dont know if you saw the drama doc. Or the follow up program, but at least one of the accused Spm's investigation team cleared her of theft.
The lawyers (I presume) knowing she had done no wrong, still used the tactic they used on everyone. Which was of charging them with theft, to pressurised them into accepting the lesser offence, and (of course!) pay the PO in full.
Fraudulent behaviour, lies and bullying.

I havent heard of any investigation into where the 'stolen' money was supposed to have been put by the SPM.

Did they not look at bank accounts, spending etc.?
It surely would have been cleared up very quickly, in some cases had they done so

They were determined to
a) get the discrepancies paid for by any means
B) cover up any computer fallabilities

One might ask why this was so important?

I don't believe it was (solely) to protect anyones pay or the good name of the PO.
Or at least, only partially.
But my thoughts on this are probably for another thread.

Grantanow

The PO must be stripped of its powers to initiate prosecutions. And it should be removed from the private sector.

The Post Office isn't in the private sector. It's state financed

Are you confusing it with Royal Mail, which the PO used to be part of until the Postal services part of Royal Mail was sold off by the tories?

I want to agree with the first statement, Grantanow, but I guess, ( I am no expert) that there must be good legal reasons for private prosecutions by an individual or group of citizens to be allowed.

The PO must be stripped of its powers to initiate prosecutions. And it should be removed from the private sector.

Interesting 2021 article from Computer Science journal, which (as mentioned in the ITV dramatisation) has been reporting on Horizon since 2009).

The link says what it is about.

www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses-knew-about-Post-Office-Horizon-IT-flaws-says-insider

There were (are?) some 40,000 Horizon terminals in post offices. In a way, it's not surprising that some 3,000 individual cases of suspected fraud (some 7% of terminals) over a number of years were not immediately picked up as exceptional. Though comparison with PO records of fraud from before the installation of Horizon should have shown that something was amiss. We don't know if this comparison was ever made.

I have said 3,000 cases because that is about the number being reported recently as being eligible for compensation from the PO. Presumably not all SPMs suspected of fraud were actually prosecuted, just dismissed.

The Horizon project was just a part of an enormous failed IT project intended to introduce electronic payments of benefits at post offices. The benefits payments element was dropped, but the computerised accounting system was retained.

I note that the Guardian article says nothing about Fujitsu being investigated, just the Post Office The OP hasn't given us any detail of what information they read or the source of the information.

I think it might have been better if the police had been involved from the start, rather than the PO using its own investigators and initiating its own prosecutions without a need to go through the DPP. But no doubt their investigation teams did better before computerisation when there was an actual paper trail to follow.

There is no need for further investigations; the facts have been clearly established. What is needed is for the compensation owed to be paid immediately, and the remaining convictions overturned forthwith.

Then proceed with investigations and deal with those responsible; heavy fines and criminal convictions.

But I think we all know most of the culprits are untouchable, because they have been facilitating for years what 'Computer Services' and Commerce want, the running-down of the post office to the benefit of the banks.

Adam Crozier was CEO of the Royal Mail/Post Office from 2003 to 2010 .
I believe questions are being asked about what went on in those years.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Crozier#Career

Thanks TerriBull

amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/05/post-office-criminal-investigation-potential-horizon-accounting-fraud

The investigation’s been ongoing for quite some time. What’s changed this week is that it’s been reported on.

I too feel disgusted that it needs a TV drama to prompt an investigation. This distressing and cruel situation has been highlighted in the media for many years now; shame on those who have deliberately turned a blind eye.

Sparklefizz

Am I a bit dim? What's Fujitsu in the heading?

The company responsible for installing the questionable Horizon computers and it was apparent Fujitsu staff were able to access the individual accounts held by the Post Office staff and then swore that wasn't possible.

Am I a bit dim? What's Fujitsu in the heading?

At least a few of them will now have lost their ‘good name’ particularly the two women who presided over this debacle.
A few sleepless nights at the very least.

Why has all this taken so long? In 2011 Ernst and Young warned in an official audit report that weaknesses in the Horizon system could lead to "unauthorised or erroneous transactions" Yet still the prosecutions continued!

It's sickening what these fat cats got away with only to go on to further appointments, sit on boards, advisory committees, picking up huge sums for what? In the meantime, those that have been bankrupt, imprisoned, suffered all manner of difficulties, financial, psychological, had their reputations ruined, committed suicide, some have died in the long wait. They have never had the justice they should have had. How I wish some of the boss class who have dishonestly presided over this momentous miscarriage of justice could suffer just some of what they have had to undergo. Yes prison sentences and losing assets would not be a step too far imo.

Glad the Met are investigating, better late than never.The point of the investigation is where all the money paid back by the SPM’s went, when there was no actual money missing, just wrong numbers churned out by Horizon.Fraud in other words.

Yeah, Ed Davey is now just worried about how it makes him look with an election coming up this year.
He wouldn’t meet with Alan Bates at the time and said he couldn’t see how a meeting would be productive.Now he blames PO execs for putting pressure on him not to.Well Duh! Didn’t that make him at all suspicious about the PO and their motives?

It doesn’t say much for Ed Daveys IQ when he says the post office misled him.
You didn’t need to be Einstein to think how can there be so many corrupt post masters when *they would have been vetted before they got the job*🤦🏼‍♀️

I am a little confused about the Ed Davey involvement, I understand he failed to meet the post office staff which is one thing but I was reading he then received quite large sums of money for services from the law firm working for the Post Office, what I cant seem to clarify is where this receiving money fell in the timeline of events.

MerylStreep

As if I couldn’t be more incensed over this awful debacle I’m apoplectic now. What did they not see when it was first exposed.
Having said that, it is the MET 🤷‍♀️

Exactly my thoughts.