THE PUSH on Channel 4

I remember an Asian taxi driver I used frequently, chopped his wife up & burned the body parts, then spread them along the side of a duel carriage way- found out because I was used to him driving us girls on night out & we felt safe as he’d watch us to the door from his car so asked if he was off ill but they wouldn’t say, eventually it was in the newspapers

V3ra

^During the viewing the wife followed the husband round without speaking. This was an educated man who would have worked with many educated women in the hospital, but it hadn’t rubbed off unfortunately.^

In 1981 I had a forceps delivery performed by an Asian doctor in a Coventry hospital.
As he delivered my baby daughter he said to the midwives in the room,
"Another bloody girl.
I've delivered five babies tonight and they've all been bloody girls."
No-one said a word.

I witnessed the same with my babies. They were born in Leicester General hospital so there were loads of Asian mothers in with me.

I used to feel so sorry for Asian women if they had a girl because relatives would be waiting to see what arrived. If it was a girl sometimes they just walked out again or sat near the bed ignoring the mother and baby with faces like thunder. When their visitors left the girls would chat to us and say they were expected to go home and straight away do all the chores.

If a boy was born they would all gather round the bed, kissing and praising the mother, singing and giving the mother gifts. These mothers were treated like princesses and not expected to do anything once they got home. They used to make me laugh when they said they were going to make the most of it!

During the viewing the wife followed the husband round without speaking. This was an educated man who would have worked with many educated women in the hospital, but it hadn’t rubbed off unfortunately.

In 1981 I had a forceps delivery performed by an Asian doctor in a Coventry hospital.
As he delivered my baby daughter he said to the midwives in the room,
"Another bloody girl.
I've delivered five babies tonight and they've all been bloody girls."
No-one said a word.

Women in certain plainly cultures aren’t valued. Some years ago we were selling our house and a Doctor (male) and his family came to view. There were two sons (primary school age) who he said attended private school and they had a baby girl. The husband wanted to know where the nearest state school was as she would be going there. Obviously not worth spending on her education. During the viewing the wife followed the husband round without speaking. This was an educated man who would have worked with many educated women in the hospital, but it hadn’t rubbed off unfortunately.

Have just watched the two programmes. It made me so angry I was shouting at the TV. How dare a male treat a woman in such a dreadful way ? " Don't behave like an English woman " ! Yes the husband was guilty but his mother and father were too because they expected her to be subservient and clearly made her life uncomfortable. She did describe them as ' the people she lived with ' rather than referring to them as her in laws.
If they can't respect our culture then they have no right to reside in this country.

DrWatson very true what you say about women being made to wear certain clothes and men whatever they like.

Go to any large city centre park on a summer day and you will see Muslim women in the full long, black gear with faces covered trotting along behind their husbands who are wearing cargo pants, vests and flip flops! The more extreme even make their little girls wear the same and believe it or not you can buy baby girl burkhas.

I am getting better very slowly. I just cannot watch programmes like the Push I just sit and cry for women coerced by such cultural values. Hopefully in future generations we may see differences. Female equality in every filed was the goal of feminism. Suzanne Morre carries the flag for us. I support the cause of female equality until I die. I note no messages from WWM nor others who surely must be feminists. Thank you for telling me about this programme. Why can’t Channel 4 give us programmes showing just how successful Women of different faiths can be. Women need encouragement.

I haven't seen this, but the comment descriptions show it's been well produced, and many of the problems aired.

Sadly the term 'culture' seems very odd if attached to Islam, which if you consider it carefully, is a stone-age faith that's still trying to inflict on present-day society the age-old 'values' (?!) in which females are 3rd-class citizens, subject to all the demeaning and controlling behaviours that 7th century people took for granted. Anyone in doubt (still?!!) should look at the wretched Afghanistan, and see what the Taliban have been doing to return it to the stone-age since the more enlightened western influence got forced out? Neanderthals with guns and mobile phones, perhaps?

Someone - possibly BlueBelle - mentioned that white women get killed by white men here too (and in the States, and right across the western world). BUT ALSO - please don't forget, this happens EVERYWHERE, right round the 3rd-world too, and of course, right round the planet, men murder each other. We still see news, often from London, but occasionally other big cities, of the gruesome stabbing murders, invariably committed by let's call it an ethnic minority, with the victim usually from that ethnic minority, or sometimes a different one. All part and parcel of their 'culture', it seems.

If you visit London, Brum, or other candidate cities and towns, you can see plenty of women dressed up (or down?) in the Niqab, Burka or Chador uniform, besides the Hijab (headscarf) which women are obliged to wear at the least. Oddly, very few Muslim men seem to be forced to wear a uniform?

I can pick holes in all religions, but Islam is especially easy to criticise for its sexist customs. We're used to women worshipping freely in churches, and the CofE permitted female clergy 30 years ago (they've a few bishops now I gather). Somehow I doubt you'll see many women worshipping with men in a mosque, and the chances of a female Imam are I guess a tad remote for a year or two?

Anyone wishing to defend that 'culture' should perhaps check the rape stats in Pakistan, and the history of arson attacks and murders against the Christian minority there, and against the Coptic Christians in Egypt (who far predate Islam, of course). I know of some women who've been here for decades, but can still speak barely a word of English, and only go out if chaperoned. You could speculate that most zoo animals have a better life?

Hi Dickens, I liked your post. How, though, do men from other cultures be forced to respect the way of life of this country? Not meant to be inflammatory, but just curious!

pascal30 That bears out what the campaigner and ex police detective Maggie Oliver keeps repeating. Unless this is all brought out into the open, it will continue. It is no good pretending it’s not going on, it’s no good ignoring the ethnicity of these groomers and brushing it under the carpet.

She now runs The Maggie Oliver Foundation and will not be silenced. If anybody deserves an award, she definitely does.
When the media refused to say that these crimes were being committed mainly by men from other cultures she did everything she could to make people listen.

Primrose53

utterbliss

I so agree with you MOORLIKEIT and PRIMROSE 53.

Thanks utterbliss and moorlikeit

I have had several PMs saying the same as you and regretting they dare not say so on this forum. That’s a shame if they feel scared to say how they feel. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and in this case I know my opinion is 100% correct.

I used to interview women and young girls who were only allowed outside the house to earn money and they were escorted to and from work by family members so they would not get any Western ideas. Many weren’t even allowed to do that and worked from home and a van driver collected their completed work and their kids dealt with the handover so the women did not come into contact with a Western man.
That is absolute control and is still going on sadly.

We had exactly the same with a young girl on a psychiatric ward. Both she and her mother had psychiatric problems.. Her father had arranged a marriage to a much older man and she became very unwell. But at every care meeting she was unable to speak because her father and brothers did so on her behalf.. there was nothing we could do.. she eventually left with some medication and no follow up

utterbliss

I so agree with you MOORLIKEIT and PRIMROSE 53.

Thanks utterbliss and moorlikeit

I have had several PMs saying the same as you and regretting they dare not say so on this forum. That’s a shame if they feel scared to say how they feel. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and in this case I know my opinion is 100% correct.

I used to interview women and young girls who were only allowed outside the house to earn money and they were escorted to and from work by family members so they would not get any Western ideas. Many weren’t even allowed to do that and worked from home and a van driver collected their completed work and their kids dealt with the handover so the women did not come into contact with a Western man.
That is absolute control and is still going on sadly.

I'd like to know how the programme was filmed ... did everyone agree to be filmed in Court (surprised the Defendant did, if that's the case). Also how did Channel 4 know to show earlier text messages etc ... Not sure of the thinking or planning behind it is what I'm trying (clumsily) to say. There was another one a few weeks ago and I thought the same.

I so agree with you MOORLIKEIT and PRIMROSE 53.

Primrose53

For those on here who want to close their eyes to the fact that honour based crimes are carried out by other cultures (in this case Muslims) here is the charity that supported the lovely Mum and also the late Shakirya and they clearly explain that it is men from other cultures that carry out these crimes.

karmanirvana.org.uk/get-help/what-is-honour-based-abuse/

You will recall seeing a lady from the charity supporting the Mother in court.

Yes, we all know all kinds of men kill women but in this case it was clearly an honour based killing which is part of their culture. If the TV and the charity can recognise this I fail to see why you can’t. It’s no good pretending it doesn’t happen.

Well said Primrose. Whilst men in all cultures kill women, in the UK it is seen as aberrant and abhorrent whilst in some cultures it is accepted and considered honourable. A vast difference in values that is ignored to the detriment of women suffering from those twisted values.

We also were deeply traumatised with The Push and like others on here, went thro all the pain endured by the poor mother. That monsters arrogance actually helped the Police with the conviction, he made many mistakes. We also wondered why she went to Edinburgh with him, but we will never know. Fawziyah was very clever tho in other ways, as if she was speaking from the grave, leaving a trail of very telling evidence.
The defence barrister even referred to the disgusting behaviour of his client. It’s true that it’s not just male dominated cultures that adhere to the barbaric and medieval practises of keeping women under control. No one can help the family they are born into, and I guess most grow up believing their family behavioural traits are “normal”. I think the schools could do a lot more to get the message across to both sexes that in the UK, no one has a right to control another.

Yes, the French did not hang around, did they? That is the way to stamp on any problematic behaviour and provide a deterrent.

Dickens

Sarnia

This is why I worry about the number of young men illegally entering the UK. So many of them will have been brought up in a culture where women are second best and subservient to men. It does not bode well for the women in our country.
In The Push it was clear that Fawziyah had married into a more traditional family than the home she had been brought up in. Her husband and his parents did not want her dressing in smart suits and wearing make-up to pursue her career as a lawyer. They wanted her to be at home, cleaning and cooking. He was under pressure from his parents to put his foot down and make her obey him but Fawziyah refused. Divorce in these families is not an option because they cannot bear the shame and disgrace that this would bring on the family and their standing in the community. It's no wonder women struggle for fairness and equality in this world when faced with beliefs like that.

I remember a time in England when - and I've no idea how prevalent this was - some men would not allow their wives to work outside the home. They were the breadwinners and the women were the housewives. It happened in my own family.

Perhaps such men thought it was a slight on their status as provider, or they resented the independence of a working-woman - felt threatened by her mixing with male work colleagues, or simply believed that a woman's place was in the home. Who knows - but it has certainly been part of our own culture... until 'Women's Liberation' (as we called it, I think) began to take off.

Immigrants from male-dominated cultures are a problem - but mostly for the womenfolk from those cultures. We are hardly likely to be re-converted back to that particular culture.

It's more an issue with integration, and I do believe that is an important matter. It doesn't matter which country or which culture is involved, but I do think when you move permanently to another nation, you have to respect its culture and traditions.

Something to ponder. Sadiq Khan, when it became known that he approved same-sex marriage, received death threats from Islamists here in the UK. These things are not talked about because (a) of the fear of stirring up a hornet's nest and (b) it's seen as xenophobic and Islamophobic.

If these allegations are true - and I think they are, I believe the Police were involved - then to ignore them is storing up future problems. Level-headed people know these Islamists are a minority, they are not representative of the majority. But multi-culturalism will not work if cultures do not respect each other or abide by the host nation's laws. What might the end result be? Factional antagonism and extremism - on both sides, leading to instability.

However, let's not forget that there are native white British men who cannot tolerate their wives' or partners' independence from them, sometimes with fatal - for the women - results.

These are controversial matters. But they cannot be ignored.

I agree with most of what you say but not when you mention that men from male dominated cultures are mostly a threat to their own women. You only have to look back at the dreadful grooming gangs in the UK. All the men were from male dominated cultures who preyed on white, vulnerable girls, not their own young girls.
Perhaps we should take a leaf out of France's book. They sent a cleric and his family who had lived in France for 40 years back to Tunisia for making insulting remarks about the French flag. Perhaps the UK should adopt that attitude.

Sarnia

This is why I worry about the number of young men illegally entering the UK. So many of them will have been brought up in a culture where women are second best and subservient to men. It does not bode well for the women in our country.
In The Push it was clear that Fawziyah had married into a more traditional family than the home she had been brought up in. Her husband and his parents did not want her dressing in smart suits and wearing make-up to pursue her career as a lawyer. They wanted her to be at home, cleaning and cooking. He was under pressure from his parents to put his foot down and make her obey him but Fawziyah refused. Divorce in these families is not an option because they cannot bear the shame and disgrace that this would bring on the family and their standing in the community. It's no wonder women struggle for fairness and equality in this world when faced with beliefs like that.

I remember a time in England when - and I've no idea how prevalent this was - some men would not allow their wives to work outside the home. They were the breadwinners and the women were the housewives. It happened in my own family.

Perhaps such men thought it was a slight on their status as provider, or they resented the independence of a working-woman - felt threatened by her mixing with male work colleagues, or simply believed that a woman's place was in the home. Who knows - but it has certainly been part of our own culture... until 'Women's Liberation' (as we called it, I think) began to take off.

Immigrants from male-dominated cultures are a problem - but mostly for the womenfolk from those cultures. We are hardly likely to be re-converted back to that particular culture.

It's more an issue with integration, and I do believe that is an important matter. It doesn't matter which country or which culture is involved, but I do think when you move permanently to another nation, you have to respect its culture and traditions.

Something to ponder. Sadiq Khan, when it became known that he approved same-sex marriage, received death threats from Islamists here in the UK. These things are not talked about because (a) of the fear of stirring up a hornet's nest and (b) it's seen as xenophobic and Islamophobic.

If these allegations are true - and I think they are, I believe the Police were involved - then to ignore them is storing up future problems. Level-headed people know these Islamists are a minority, they are not representative of the majority. But multi-culturalism will not work if cultures do not respect each other or abide by the host nation's laws. What might the end result be? Factional antagonism and extremism - on both sides, leading to instability.

However, let's not forget that there are native white British men who cannot tolerate their wives' or partners' independence from them, sometimes with fatal - for the women - results.

These are controversial matters. But they cannot be ignored.

so sorry can’t edit the name to Fawziyah. Senior moment and rushing to go out. Apologies.

For those on here who want to close their eyes to the fact that honour based crimes are carried out by other cultures (in this case Muslims) here is the charity that supported the lovely Mum and also the late Shakirya and they clearly explain that it is men from other cultures that carry out these crimes.

karmanirvana.org.uk/get-help/what-is-honour-based-abuse/

You will recall seeing a lady from the charity supporting the Mother in court.

Yes, we all know all kinds of men kill women but in this case it was clearly an honour based killing which is part of their culture. If the TV and the charity can recognise this I fail to see why you can’t. It’s no good pretending it doesn’t happen.

This is why I worry about the number of young men illegally entering the UK. So many of them will have been brought up in a culture where women are second best and subservient to men. It does not bode well for the women in our country.
In The Push it was clear that Fawziyah had married into a more traditional family than the home she had been brought up in. Her husband and his parents did not want her dressing in smart suits and wearing make-up to pursue her career as a lawyer. They wanted her to be at home, cleaning and cooking. He was under pressure from his parents to put his foot down and make her obey him but Fawziyah refused. Divorce in these families is not an option because they cannot bear the shame and disgrace that this would bring on the family and their standing in the community. It's no wonder women struggle for fairness and equality in this world when faced with beliefs like that.

Eloethan

Bluebelle I was going to say the same thing.

It was obviously a terrible murder and the husband was a control freak and a bully. I was glad he was found guilty. However, I think it is a shame that people see this entirely as a cultural issue and have used this extreme case as if it were typical of a whole group of people. Women have been subjected to stalking, coercive control, rape, violence and murder carried out by white British men - even policemen.

However, I think it is a shame that people see this entirely as a cultural issue and have used this extreme case as if it were typical of a whole group of people. Women have been subjected to stalking, coercive control, rape, violence and murder carried out by white British men - even policemen.

Quite so.

I believe it's a male 'inadequacy' basically. Some men can only feel comfortable if they are in control of 'their' women. And, unfortunately, some cultures lend themselves to that power structure. Which might be why they endure - because it's still, when all's said and done, a man's world.

Bluebelle I was going to say the same thing.

It was obviously a terrible murder and the husband was a control freak and a bully. I was glad he was found guilty. However, I think it is a shame that people see this entirely as a cultural issue and have used this extreme case as if it were typical of a whole group of people. Women have been subjected to stalking, coercive control, rape, violence and murder carried out by white British men - even policemen.

I watched the programme over the 2 nights. I remember reading about the trial when it was on. Totally shocking. It was so awful, and truly represented the ongoing life suffering of the victim's family, and of other families whose loved ones have been unlawfully killed.

I think it is an excellent thing to show murder trials on TV, and I think this is particular to Scotland, but I may be wrong.
I have watched the 3 previous Murder Trials as dealt with in the Scottish justice system, when they were on TV.
The previous 3 were all cold cases, but equally shocking. The prosecutor was the same person, and the suffering of the victims families was equally heartbreaking.
The previous programmes were on BBC and may still be on iPlayer