Wolf Hall - Season 2 - The Mirror & the Light

I did wonder who the woman was talking to Cromwell about marriage and then realised she was supposed to be Jane Seymour's sister 🤔

Just settling down on the sofa to enjoy episode 3. 📺

Interesting to note Jane Seymour's apparently Indian sister in the latest episode.

But this assumes that black skin = low status.

No it doesn't. It means uncertain ancestry.
The Tudor court was full of 'new' men,as were the Tudors themselves, many descended from minor landed gentry, but self-made, as were the Boleyn family. Much despised by the old families, such as the Howards, who could generally claim descent from younger sons of distant royalty. Many hours were spent tracing relationships, as was common until almost the present day. Now it is wealth rather than rank. Look at the unkind remarks about the 'Wisteria sisters.'

Trump needs to take a lesson from Cromwell, - never be kind or enabling to tyrants - they always come back to bite you.

On again tonight!

I think you’re right though Grandmabatty.
Hilary Mantel had a soft spot for him and wove her admiration for him into her story. Yes, it certainly made the ending in her novel poignant. I cried! (Daft when one thinks about it as we know how he fared, but HM’s depiction of his character lent to the poignancy).

If course there's no evidence that Cromwell had a softer side nor asked Dorothea to marry him! He enabled Henry in his more dastardly acts and was, I'm sure, quite ruthless. The guardian have an interesting view on the series which I tend to agree with.

Surely, the main reason that Cromwell asked Dorothea to marry him, was his realisation that he needed to be safely married (or at least betrothed), in order to be able to counter the charge of his hoping to marry Princess Mary. That, in itself, was a beheading offence!

I thoroughly enjoyed episode two. I think the part where Cromwell visited Dorothea is deliberately done to highlight a softer, more human side to him, thus making the eventual ending more sad.

The painting of Norfolk looks like Charles Dance to me

Having an off day.

Me again. 😲

From the Radio Times:

“Yes, historical records suggest that Cardinal Wolsey most likely did have a daughter named Dorothy (spelt Dorothea in Wolf Hall: The Mirror and the Light).

During Wolsey's younger years, the vow of celibacy by Catholic priests had not yet been widely adopted, and so he had a relationship with a woman named Joan Larke, with whom he had two children: Thomas and Dorothy.

Thomas was adopted by the Wynter family and went on to hold various positions in the Church, including Archdeacon of Cornwall and Prebend of Saunderton.

Meanwhile, Dorothy was adopted by John Clancey, who arranged a place for her at Shaftesbury Abbey convent – known for housing daughters of wealthy individuals – where she became a nun until it was dissolved.

The abbey's fate is alluded to in Wolf Hall: The Mirror and the Light, with Cromwell making assurances to the head of the convent that the property would not face the same fate as many monasteries at that time. That comment aged poorly!

Although there is no evidence to suggest that Cromwell proposed marriage to Dorothy, or even that she should live with him, it is possible that he felt some loyalty to her because of who her father was.

Evidencing this is the fact that Dorothy received a pension from Cromwell after Shaftesbury Abbey was dissolved, which would have helped her to sustain herself in the years ahead – although little more is known about her life.”

I’m absolutely loving this series. The actors are superb. Anyone else think Damien Lewis and Mark Rylance Don’t look any different 10 years on? Amazing, really. 😁

Pittcity

sassenach512

I felt quite sorry for Cromwell last night even though he's been the instigator of several executions. It became glaringly obvious to him that the knives are ever present around him. Does anyone know what happened to Dorothea after the dissolution of the monasteries?

There's evidence that Cromwell paid Dorothy (Hilary Mantel changed it to Dorothea) a pension after the Dissolution but nothing else is known.

Oh. Just seen this must keep up!

MayBee70

David49

The first episode was compulsive, for me the second dragged somewhat, I will watch again but we all know how it ends so there is less incentive to watch to the end.

I couldn’t work out who the nun was.

Do you mean the actress or the part? She is the daughter of Cardinal Wolsey - Dorothea. Illegitimate I assume?

I must look her up on Google and find out what happened to her. This has piqued my curiosity!

I think he looks like Ben Fogle

Calendargirl

Pittcity

The Holbein portrait of Norfolk looks very like a familiar actor who's name I can't remember.....

Brilliant touch to have Holbein painting away in the background.

I think he looks like Philip Jackson, who played Inspector Japp in Poirot.

He was also in Sherwood and the Good Karma Hospital amongst other programmes.

The painting of Norfolk looks like Charles Dance to me.

David49

The first episode was compulsive, for me the second dragged somewhat, I will watch again but we all know how it ends so there is less incentive to watch to the end.

I couldn’t work out who the nun was.

The first episode was compulsive, for me the second dragged somewhat, I will watch again but we all know how it ends so there is less incentive to watch to the end.

I’m really enjoying this, although I do keep falling asleep part way through and have to rewatch it. That isn’t because it’s dull but because I tend to watch things very late at night! I’ve discovered a wonderful new podcast by the BBC: History Extra. And one episode gives a very simple and concise explanation of how Cromwell fell from grace so fast when he was at the height of his powers. I think there are more episodes about Cromwell, too.

Thanks Calendargirl, that's just who I was thinking of.

Pittcity

The Holbein portrait of Norfolk looks very like a familiar actor who's name I can't remember.....

Brilliant touch to have Holbein painting away in the background.

I think he looks like Philip Jackson, who played Inspector Japp in Poirot.

He was also in Sherwood and the Good Karma Hospital amongst other programmes.

I love Holbein's drawings. The people just seem so recognisable somehow. The faces are such that you could see them in any crowd today.

sassenach512

I felt quite sorry for Cromwell last night even though he's been the instigator of several executions. It became glaringly obvious to him that the knives are ever present around him. Does anyone know what happened to Dorothea after the dissolution of the monasteries?

There's evidence that Cromwell paid Dorothy (Hilary Mantel changed it to Dorothea) a pension after the Dissolution but nothing else is known.

The Holbein portrait of Norfolk looks very like a familiar actor who's name I can't remember.....

Brilliant touch to have Holbein painting away in the background.