Wolf Hall - Season 2 - The Mirror & the Light

Oreo

A sort of Tudor Trump 😁

Just what I was thinking other night! I then mentally added ‘a Tudor Putin.’

If you say so. I disagree, but it doesn’t matter. I CBA to ‘discuss’ in the face of sighs and accusations of being ‘ignorant’. Gransnet has changed over the past few months - we used to be able to debate without this sort of thing, but now every thread seems to result in insults and personal digs.

I thought all three books were brilliant and was sad when I finished them, I did enjoy the first tv series and am looking forward to this one too.

It isn’t a race matter but a historical accuracy matter.

Children wouldn’t struggle with it , not for any enlightened views but for ignorant ones as they know nothing of the Tudor Court and would be prepared to believe anything.

I struggle with the style of writing in the books too, mum2three. I loved Wolf Hall, however.

I don’t think children would struggle with an occasional black face at court though. It is adults who set store by this sort of thing - children don’t, unless they are taught that skin colour matters.

I bought both books just a short time ago and was looking forward to reading them. However, I fear I have wasted my money as I don't like the style of writing at all. I had previously read a book about the same time period which was far superior. (can't remember the name of the author).

There is some argument at the moment about the casting in this drama. Something which the BBC should remember is that schoolchildren are encouraged to watch historical dramas, as it helps bring history to life. It must be very confusing for them when the actors don't fit their parts.

On a lighter note, if you watched the first Bridgeton, you would know that half the aristocracy of Britain were black. Some even sported dreadlocks, dyed blonde. A fantasy ,I know . No where near the truth .

X posts

If they weren’t members of the aristocracy in the court then they were servants, and tbh I think my sigh was justified .

Just think about it Doodledog! Was there an influx of wealthy black aristocrats into England in those days?

No need to sigh.

Why would black people be servants? Was there the sort of racism we see today?

But if you insist, 😄maybe the Duke of Norfolk was black.

Doodledog

*We know the historical characters were white.*
Do we? How?

As an example, we do know that there were black people in Roman garrisons for instance, and that some of them settled here and had descendants. Why wouldn't some of them have ended up in the court hundreds of years later? The population was small, and the degrees of separation between people were correspondingly much fewer than nowadays.

Sigh
They may have been servants I grant you, or maybe not.The only black person verified was a trumpeter at the court.

Doodledog

Boz

Avaline is quite right; it strikes a jarring note and only done to appease the Actors Unions who insist on a certain number of ethnic parts just to get ethnic minorities in a job.

Is this true, or have you assumed it? I ask as I really want to know - I'm not being combative. I don't know anyone in Equity to ask.

You will not, I believe, find anything written by Equity but they are committed to racial inclusivity.
Yes - ethnic minority actors have a right to work but surely it makes artistic sense to be contextual to the period and plot?
It would annoy me to see a white actress playing, for eg. The No.1 Ladies Detective and I recently watched Pachinko - all Korean and Japanese actors and so brilliant.
Don't forget, it is also a marketing ploy to interest a multi-cultural audience - debatable imo.

keepingquiet

I suggest people read some real historical evidence for there being black people in the courts of all the Tudor monarchs.

Try Marina Kauffmann's book 'Black Tudors: The Untold Story for starters.

I do not dispute that there were black Tudors. In fact I have read the book you mention. However, there can be no dispute that Jane Seymour’s mother and sister were white. They’re being black would require an entire fabrication of their lineage. This is a fact. I would not expect to see Mark Rylance playing Nelson Mandela and suspect there would be a very loud outcry from certain quarters should this ever be considered.

I suggest people read some real historical evidence for there being black people in the courts of all the Tudor monarchs.

Try Marina Kauffmann's book 'Black Tudors: The Untold Story for starters.

We know the historical characters were white.
Do we? How?

As an example, we do know that there were black people in Roman garrisons for instance, and that some of them settled here and had descendants. Why wouldn't some of them have ended up in the court hundreds of years later? The population was small, and the degrees of separation between people were correspondingly much fewer than nowadays.

Boz

Avaline is quite right; it strikes a jarring note and only done to appease the Actors Unions who insist on a certain number of ethnic parts just to get ethnic minorities in a job.

Is this true, or have you assumed it? I ask as I really want to know - I'm not being combative. I don't know anyone in Equity to ask.

vintage1950

By the way, I think that Savoy was an independent duchy in those days, with both French and Italian speakers. It's a stretch to choose an Iranian actor but I think it works.

Fair enough vintage1950 but that would make the Frenchman equally as diverse as the Iranian.
I just think Almaric is excellent and why take one of the perfect stones out of the perfect broach....just for the sake of it.
Nothing against Iran or Iranians or this actor.
Different actors getting a chance to become as famous as the "top tier "of actors is fair enough but is a slightly different argument , I feel.
Anyroad I'm still enjoying it enormously.
Feel that the excellent Timothy Spall not quite hitting the right note Yet.......

Thinking about it tho, have never seen a painting of a blond Nordic Jesus, but some African countries do have icons of a black Jesus.Both of which are wrong.

Yes, indeed.

Indeed

Oreo

Doodledog

Clawdy

What on earth is the problem with diversity casting? The acting is far more important. I've never seen a better portrayal of David Copperfield than Dev Patel's!

I don't understand the hangups people have over this sort of thing either. We know we are watching a dramatisation of a novel, and that much of the dialogue is invented, as are the personalities of the characters.

All we know for sure is that X happened on Y date and bits of partisan recollections from surviving letters and other documents. The rest is pieced together by historians who argue amongst themselves about motives and affiliations etc. W

We know the historical characters were white.

Well yes, I get this. Christian religious pictures really annoy me, as they mostly picture Jesus as white, often even blond with blue eyes- which is just ridiculous.

keepingquiet

Aveline

keeping quiet I have no problem with casting reflecting the diversity of modern life. However, when it is just plain historically inaccurate it strikes a very jarring note and undermines the authenticity if the production . Have you ever seen Holbein's wonderful drawings of court characters of the time? All white people.

Oh for Heaven's sake! If you see a painting of the present Royal Family, you would only see the same.

This is historical drama, not a history documentary.

It’s about real people who existed.