Churchill's Secret Apartheid

theworriedwell

Allira

Tall Poppy Syndrome began in Australia and New Zealsnd but seems to have spread here.

Is it now a part of the British psyche to demonise those who were regarded as heroes or saviours of the nation after their deaths? Not just Churchill, but many others.
It seems to be done with relish.

Do people think through the alternatives of what life would be like now were it not for these people?

I think more about the people like my late father and late father in law who were actually out there fighting and risking their lives. As far as I'm concerned their contribution was every bit as important as Churchill's and without the racism.

You don't have to point that out to me.
Some never came back.

Thst is a red herring anyway.

I don't understand how criticising Churchill's racism, sexism and classism is remotely conflicted with appreciating his leadership or being grateful to those who fought to save us from the far right nightmare of Nazism. Can someone please explain, as I have asked twice to no avail?

DeeDa, I am impressed by the balance of views as set out in the programme. Churchill did right as a politician despite the nasty American apartheid being wrong on principle. It was Churchill's job to stop the Nazis but it was not his job to preach morality to Americans.

It was also heart warming to see archive material that demonstrated British hospitality and freedom of speech and assembly.

Allira

Tall Poppy Syndrome began in Australia and New Zealsnd but seems to have spread here.

Is it now a part of the British psyche to demonise those who were regarded as heroes or saviours of the nation after their deaths? Not just Churchill, but many others.
It seems to be done with relish.

Do people think through the alternatives of what life would be like now were it not for these people?

I think more about the people like my late father and late father in law who were actually out there fighting and risking their lives. As far as I'm concerned their contribution was every bit as important as Churchill's and without the racism.

Tall Poppy Syndrome began in Australia and New Zealsnd but seems to have spread here.

Is it now a part of the British psyche to demonise those who were regarded as heroes or saviours of the nation after their deaths? Not just Churchill, but many others.
It seems to be done with relish.

Do people think through the alternatives of what life would be like now were it not for these people?

There were definitely Black UK members of the Services. A good number were UK born (including friends of my dad) and many were from the Commonwealth.
The Army & Navy still operated a 'colour bar' at Officer level, which is one reason Black British Servicemen (and women) and Black Commonwealth volunteers wanted to join the RAF. According to my dad & his friends, there was very little racism in the RAF, but they did sometimes come across some teasing or taunting, which they dealt with very quickly!
Not sure when the colour bar was lifted, not long after the War I think.

David49

Doodledog

David49

I bused those that hate Churchill would have preferred to be ruled by Hitler, after Dunkirk it was a straight choice.

It’s a strange world

What a reductive comment. It is perfectly possible to respect and be grateful for the leadership that got us through the war, and simultaneously acknowledge that he was racist, sexist and classist. So was my grandfather, born in 1905, but he was also kind, funny and loved his family.

It was more usual in those days, and whereas it makes sense to make allowances for upbringing and education it is dishonest to pretend it wasn’t part of someone’s personality. The difference is that my grandfather didn’t make policies and confines his prejudices to negative comments about foreigners, unions and women.

How far do you take the ignoring of aspects of a personality that make you uncomfortable? If a serial killer invented a cure for cancer should we write off his murderous behaviour and be concentrate on gratitude?

Alan Turing arguably had as much to do with winning the war as Churchill, but the prejudices of the time had him jailed anyway for his homosexuality, and he was castrated in 1952, when Churchill was PM. What happened to gratitude towards him? Does Churchill’s inaction to stop the persecution of Turing mean he would prefer to have lived under the jackboot?

In June 1940 after Dunkirk there were no black GIs in the UK, nor was Truing breaking codes, it was the most important decision of the war.
If we had chosen to join Hitler we would have had Jackboot's in the street within weeks and a great many minorities would have suffered.

Never underestimate Churchills leadership.

There were black troops in the UK even if they weren't GIs. I don't suppose Churchills racism was restricted to those born in the USA.

You do realise Churchill didn't win the war singlehanded?

Again, David, I can’t see what I may have said that suggests I do. Perhaps you could explain?

Doodledog

David49

I bused those that hate Churchill would have preferred to be ruled by Hitler, after Dunkirk it was a straight choice.

It’s a strange world

What a reductive comment. It is perfectly possible to respect and be grateful for the leadership that got us through the war, and simultaneously acknowledge that he was racist, sexist and classist. So was my grandfather, born in 1905, but he was also kind, funny and loved his family.

It was more usual in those days, and whereas it makes sense to make allowances for upbringing and education it is dishonest to pretend it wasn’t part of someone’s personality. The difference is that my grandfather didn’t make policies and confines his prejudices to negative comments about foreigners, unions and women.

How far do you take the ignoring of aspects of a personality that make you uncomfortable? If a serial killer invented a cure for cancer should we write off his murderous behaviour and be concentrate on gratitude?

Alan Turing arguably had as much to do with winning the war as Churchill, but the prejudices of the time had him jailed anyway for his homosexuality, and he was castrated in 1952, when Churchill was PM. What happened to gratitude towards him? Does Churchill’s inaction to stop the persecution of Turing mean he would prefer to have lived under the jackboot?

In June 1940 after Dunkirk there were no black GIs in the UK, nor was Truing breaking codes, it was the most important decision of the war.
If we had chosen to join Hitler we would have had Jackboot's in the street within weeks and a great many minorities would have suffered.

Never underestimate Churchills leadership.

David49

I bused those that hate Churchill would have preferred to be ruled by Hitler, after Dunkirk it was a straight choice.

It’s a strange world

What a reductive comment. It is perfectly possible to respect and be grateful for the leadership that got us through the war, and simultaneously acknowledge that he was racist, sexist and classist. So was my grandfather, born in 1905, but he was also kind, funny and loved his family.

It was more usual in those days, and whereas it makes sense to make allowances for upbringing and education it is dishonest to pretend it wasn’t part of someone’s personality. The difference is that my grandfather didn’t make policies and confines his prejudices to negative comments about foreigners, unions and women.

How far do you take the ignoring of aspects of a personality that make you uncomfortable? If a serial killer invented a cure for cancer should we write off his murderous behaviour and be concentrate on gratitude?

Alan Turing arguably had as much to do with winning the war as Churchill, but the prejudices of the time had him jailed anyway for his homosexuality, and he was castrated in 1952, when Churchill was PM. What happened to gratitude towards him? Does Churchill’s inaction to stop the persecution of Turing mean he would prefer to have lived under the jackboot?

David49

I bused those that hate Churchill would have preferred to be ruled by Hitler, after Dunkirk it was a straight choice.

It’s a strange world

I don't think it was a straight choice. The emphasis on Churchill ignores all of the other members of the cabinet. It is true that they thought he would be the best war-time leader, and it worked.
That doesn't mean that a government without Churchill wouldn't have worked, and it doesn't mean that he is an unqualified hero.
I don't think that the comparison with Shakespeare is at all fair. I also don't think that Churchill's views were 'mainstream' at all. It is possible that they may have been the prevailing views of the small section of society he came from (although I'm not sure that was actually the case).
I am very interested in the variety of views on Churchill and the feelings it provokes so many years on. I also think we should remember who writes the history books - mostly white, mostly men, and above all, the literate.

David49

I bused those that hate Churchill would have preferred to be ruled by Hitler, after Dunkirk it was a straight choice.

It’s a strange world

Yes that was obviously what people would have preferred. What a ridiculous thing to say, do you think those black GIs would have had a great time with Hitler? That doesn't make accepting racism here OK or necessary.

Exactly David49. I’ve seen no posts that deny many of Churchill’s attitudes and actions were abhorrent. They did reflect attitudes at that time in history, that were shared by many. Acknowledging that does not mean posters support racism

Bloody autocorrect “guess”

I bused those that hate Churchill would have preferred to be ruled by Hitler, after Dunkirk it was a straight choice.

It’s a strange world

I have Irish relations who still spit when his name is mentioned

Many Irish people volunteered to serve in the British Forces during WW2 to fight Hitler and is Nazis, for which we should all be thankful.

So, of course, did the patriotic Scots.

My paternal grandmother -she died long before I was born, ran a “parlour” type pub during the war and there were I was told “incidents” such as mentioned above.
She told the white American soldiers - in no uncertain terms, my pub, my rules so ‘accept it or leave’ -to rounds of applause!

Does anyone remember the rather good tv adaptation of Andrea Levys’ novel Small Island ? The story centres on the experiences of black people coming to England during and just after WW2.

TerriBull

I saw the Raiway Children and agree some of the scenes relating to the treatment of the black soldiers was horrible. I'd read about that prejudice before, I think some of those men felt that they got better treatment from the locals where they were stationed in England than their own compatriots. Churchill, like many world leaders had his flaws, find me one that hasn't. Some decisions taken during wartime in retrospect would have been the wrong ones, that would be inevitable there was so much to balance. He nevertheless was the man who got this country through an incredibly difficult time. My mother spent those years working in London when incendiary bombs were dropping all over the place, never knowing whether there would be a home, or family to come back to. I remember her telling me "the war destroyed relationships and people and there was absolutely no certainty or ability to project forward just to get through the day and hopefully the next one" My father was in North Africa most of the time. They were both teens at the outset in 1939. I think they felt that he was the right leader for the time, even if they later thought there was a need for change post war. Later generations can give their opinions, but none of us were there on the ground living through it and what was needed a then was strong leadership.

My late MIL married her black north American soldier husband during WWII and my husband was the result. Actually I think he has a right to have a view of how they were treated and how he was treated. It isn't ancient history and a child who was spat on in the street because he was a different colour to his mother is evidence of how disgracefully people behaved. A child hearing his mother being called a whore because her child was a different colour is entitled to be judgemental. Remember my late FIL was here fighting

I can't speak for 'the English' but know many who don't think highly of Churchill, for many reasons.

Deedaa 😵‍💫😩

AreWeThereYet The Battle Of Bamber Bridge was in the programme. There was also a landlady who was told coloured GIs weren't allowed to drink in her pub. She gave one of them a bottle to take out with him. The American MPs were outside and after an altercation with him and his friends they shot him in the back. US records from the time show that no action was taken against them.

I have Irish relations who still spit when his name is mentioned

That doesn’t surprise me, seeing as the Republic of Ireland was hardly supportive of Britain during the war.

Definitely not in Wales, he sent troops to South wales in 1910 with orders to shoot the striking miners , this cost him an
election in 1950

Yes paddyann we are all familiar with your feelings about Churchill and by extension, The English

Churchills racism showed itself long before WW11 ,South Africa where he used the first concentration camps ,his treatment of the people on the Indian sub continent are just two of his many crimes against humanity .He wasn,t a hero in the war either and made huge mistakes costing thousands of lives .Hewas never popular in parts of the “UK” either ask the Welsh or many Scots what they thought of him and I have Irish relations who still spit when his name is mentioned .There are flaws and then there’s downright evil and he was verging on the evil where many people were concerned .He is however an English hero …which might go some way to explaining why the last several WM governments are accepted ,condoned and in the case of Johnston celebrated….