Churchill's Secret Apartheid

Allira

theworriedwell

Allira

Tall Poppy Syndrome began in Australia and New Zealsnd but seems to have spread here.

Is it now a part of the British psyche to demonise those who were regarded as heroes or saviours of the nation after their deaths? Not just Churchill, but many others.
It seems to be done with relish.

Do people think through the alternatives of what life would be like now were it not for these people?

I think more about the people like my late father and late father in law who were actually out there fighting and risking their lives. As far as I'm concerned their contribution was every bit as important as Churchill's and without the racism.

You don't have to point that out to me.
Some never came back.

Thst is a red herring anyway.

Red herring? Do you mean awkward when you want to make a racist a hero? The real heroes weren't in London in underground bunkers when bombs fell they were fighting and losing their lives or risking their physical and mental health.

Do you seriously think we'd have just surrendered without Churchill?

Churchhill was not a nice man. He took an enormous gamble and won- but could easily have lost too.

Ever read 'Mudbound' to see what happened to heroes when they returned to the USA. Black ones. The norm? So that makes it alright then. The norm to be antisemite too- like in Germany or some parts of UK with Moseley. The norm?

Allira

🤷‍♀️
Whatever

Are you a teenager? How rude!

“Do you seriously think we'd have just surrendered without Churchill?”

Without doubt if it hadnt been for Churchills leadership Britain would have surrendered or at least been neutral, whatever that would have involved in practice. We stood alone and fought on against the odds, many wanted to give in but it was Churchill that persuaded Britain to fight.

As for racism, yes it was much more prevalent, 60 yrs ago all sorts of discrimination was normalized, it doesn’t diminish Churchills legacy, he is easily the most significant Briton of the 20th century.

Fleurpepper

Churchhill was not a nice man. He took an enormous gamble and won- but could easily have lost too.

Ever read 'Mudbound' to see what happened to heroes when they returned to the USA. Black ones. The norm? So that makes it alright then. The norm to be antisemite too- like in Germany or some parts of UK with Moseley. The norm?

Yes but Churchill did win, the big risk withe making peace with Hitler was betrayal, as Russia found out, his word was not to be trusted. With Britain as an ally the Third Reich could still rule Europe today, there would have been no way for Europe to be liberated.

Hitlers only mistake was to invade Russia, Napoleon before him failed, if the had invaded us in 1940 he would have won. Eventually the US did commit to liberation and Hitlers fate was sealed.

Iam64

Yes paddyann we are all familiar with your feelings about Churchill and by extension, The English

Well said.

Fleurpepper

Allira

🤷‍♀️
Whatever

Are you a teenager? How rude!

How else to answer rude comments verging on personal attacks?

Best to brush them off.

Ever read 'Mudbound' to see what happened to heroes when they returned to the USA. Black ones.

Could Churchill influence USA home politics?

It's easy for people to be critical of Churchill and the UK if your country was not involved in fighting Hitler and the Nazis.

Doodledog

Allira

Doodledog

I don't understand how criticising Churchill's racism, sexism and classism is remotely conflicted with appreciating his leadership or being grateful to those who fought to save us from the far right nightmare of Nazism. Can someone please explain, as I have asked twice to no avail?

If you don't understand therd is no other way of explaining.

Why not? I'm not an idiot. If someone tries to explain I will try to understand - I usually do understand what is explained in English, even if I don't agree with it.

If you don't understand that people can be a mixture of good and bad traits, and we can admire the good ones whilst criticising the bad, am I wasting my time trying to explain that to you?

This is the 'rude remark verging on a personal attack' to which you refer.

You responded with an arrogant 'Whatever' and a shrug, and are now saying that it is 'best to brush [the comment] off.

I responded in kind to your remark that I am hard of understanding. I was polite, not personal, and pointed out that it is perfectly possible to make a case, if you have a case to make. Clearly you don't.

Fair enough, but please do not accuse me of being rude or personal by being rude and personal yourself?

I was neither. I will leave others to judge your response.

Oh dear.
My turn.

You cannot past judgement on a past time by the standards we have now. Slavery is abhorrent to us now - and was to many people at the time. Racism is abhorrent to us now. It was not in the past for so many reasons. That is just how it was.

Expressing moral outrage now about how people behaved in the past is ridiculous. Where does it stop? Anglo-Saxon child slaves were sold in the slave markets in Rome. uman sacrifices permeate every culture at some point.

That was then. This is now, Get over it.

👏👏👏

We should learn from history and try not to repeat it.

Sadly, slavery still goes on today.

David49

“Do you seriously think we'd have just surrendered without Churchill?”

Without doubt if it hadnt been for Churchills leadership Britain would have surrendered or at least been neutral, whatever that would have involved in practice. We stood alone and fought on against the odds, many wanted to give in but it was Churchill that persuaded Britain to fight.

As for racism, yes it was much more prevalent, 60 yrs ago all sorts of discrimination was normalized, it doesn’t diminish Churchills legacy, he is easily the most significant Briton of the 20th century.

Total rubbish. For a kick off we did not stand alone, are you seriously suggesting that the British singlehandedly won the war? Have a look at the casualty rates for other countries, you could start with countries that are now in the Commonwealth then British colonies. I think my Polish uncle who fought with the Free Polish at Monte Casino would take exception with that, so would my Canadian FIL, as the war went on the numbers grew. Churchill wasn't leading them all.

Churchill was a war time leader, one of many, it does not excuse his racism.

M0nica

You cannot past judgement on a past time by the standards we have now. Slavery is abhorrent to us now - and was to many people at the time. Racism is abhorrent to us now. It was not in the past for so many reasons. That is just how it was.

Expressing moral outrage now about how people behaved in the past is ridiculous. Where does it stop? Anglo-Saxon child slaves were sold in the slave markets in Rome. uman sacrifices permeate every culture at some point.

That was then. This is now, Get over it.

Where does the past start? Yesterday? Was racism OK then? The 1940s is not comparable to the Anglo Saxon period, people are still alive who were subjected to racism in the 1940s, history to you but living memory to them.

As to "That is just how it was." Only for some, not everyone was a racist.

Viewing the past through today's eyes is always a bit of a grey area. However, we also know that many people and their ideas & views are 'hidden from history'.
My father (born 100 years ago) would pull up anyone who showed signs of what he called 'prejudice' or any derogatory words for people of colour, or women. He was from an ordinary working class background.
My great-grandparents and their (grand)parents, through the Co-operative and Socialist movements condemned slavery and Empire. Some of them were illiterate, but they knew right from wrong.
I might accept that several hundred years ago, things were different; but I think that if ordinary working people 200 years ago (my knowledge of my family goes back that far) knew judging people by the colour of their skin was wrong, then I rather think that the ruling class should have had an inkling.

Nannarose, your family history sounds similar to mine. We had the Rochdale pioneers and co-op to influence mill workers
Cotton workers in the north west refused to work slave picked cotton
They supported Ghandi when he came to talk about the poverty of cotton workers in India.
A small town in the north west has its market hall with the image of a freed slave who came to explain the horrors to people here

In the 1960s I worked and socialised with people from Asia, and the Caribbean and I saw and heard the grossly offensive words and actions they were subject to and the dreadful living conditions they lived in.

The fact that some people were not racist then does, not conflict with the knowledge and experience that society as a whole then was institutionally racist and that ran throughout society. The experience of racism that people experienced came from ordinary people on the street, in hospitals, shops, factories, the police, landlords. The immigrant population had little or no contact with the higher echelons of society, so didn't need to worry about their racism.

I am half Irish and before the commonwealth immigrants, which nearly all were in the 1960s, it was the Irish immigrants who filled the place at the bottom of society and were treated with exactly the same contempt and discriminated against in just the same way. My mother can remember signs saying 'No Irish, no children, no dogs' .

My mother was fortunate, her mother, with an obviously Irish surname had the sense to marry a man whose surname was thoroughly English, so she was spared the gratutious insults thrown at Irish people as her name did not give her away.

Right now, you, and I and others on GN and in the country espouse views and attitudes that will disgust people alive 100 years from now. Views we thoughtfully and consciously see no harm in or believe to be virtuous, I do not know what they are - and neither does anyone else, but right thinking as we think we are, to our descendents we will be very wrong thinking. It bears giving some consideration to.

theworriedwell

M0nica

You cannot past judgement on a past time by the standards we have now. Slavery is abhorrent to us now - and was to many people at the time. Racism is abhorrent to us now. It was not in the past for so many reasons. That is just how it was.

Expressing moral outrage now about how people behaved in the past is ridiculous. Where does it stop? Anglo-Saxon child slaves were sold in the slave markets in Rome. uman sacrifices permeate every culture at some point.

That was then. This is now, Get over it.

Where does the past start? Yesterday? Was racism OK then? The 1940s is not comparable to the Anglo Saxon period, people are still alive who were subjected to racism in the 1940s, history to you but living memory to them.

As to "That is just how it was." Only for some, not everyone was a racist.

Was just going to write this. We are talking about very recent history, our parents generation, and for many, our own. And as for Apartheid in South Africa, VERY very recent history- our own ACs generation. In our case, my OH's family history and the reason they left for the UK in 1948.

David49

“Do you seriously think we'd have just surrendered without Churchill?”

Without doubt if it hadnt been for Churchills leadership Britain would have surrendered or at least been neutral, whatever that would have involved in practice. We stood alone and fought on against the odds, many wanted to give in but it was Churchill that persuaded Britain to fight.

As for racism, yes it was much more prevalent, 60 yrs ago all sorts of discrimination was normalized, it doesn’t diminish Churchills legacy, he is easily the most significant Briton of the 20th century.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

M0nica

In the 1960s I worked and socialised with people from Asia, and the Caribbean and I saw and heard the grossly offensive words and actions they were subject to and the dreadful living conditions they lived in.

The fact that some people were not racist then does, not conflict with the knowledge and experience that society as a whole then was institutionally racist and that ran throughout society. The experience of racism that people experienced came from ordinary people on the street, in hospitals, shops, factories, the police, landlords. The immigrant population had little or no contact with the higher echelons of society, so didn't need to worry about their racism.

I am half Irish and before the commonwealth immigrants, which nearly all were in the 1960s, it was the Irish immigrants who filled the place at the bottom of society and were treated with exactly the same contempt and discriminated against in just the same way. My mother can remember signs saying 'No Irish, no children, no dogs' .

My mother was fortunate, her mother, with an obviously Irish surname had the sense to marry a man whose surname was thoroughly English, so she was spared the gratutious insults thrown at Irish people as her name did not give her away.

Right now, you, and I and others on GN and in the country espouse views and attitudes that will disgust people alive 100 years from now. Views we thoughtfully and consciously see no harm in or believe to be virtuous, I do not know what they are - and neither does anyone else, but right thinking as we think we are, to our descendents we will be very wrong thinking. It bears giving some consideration to.

Very very good post 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

“Do you seriously think we'd have just surrendered without Churchill?”

"The settlement of the Czechoslovakian problem, which has now been achieved is, in my view, only the prelude to a larger settlement in which all Europe may find peace. This morning I had another talk with the German Chancellor, Herr Hitler, and here is the paper which bears his name upon it as well as mine [shows paper to crowd]. Some of you, perhaps, have already heard what it contains but I would just like to read it to you: " ... We regard the agreement signed last night and the Anglo-German Naval Agreement as symbolic of the desire of our two peoples never to go to war with one another again".

"My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."

Neville Chamberlain.

Poor old Chamberlain, easily taken in by Herr Hitler.
Churchill was just the right man for the right time.

Oreo

Poor old Chamberlain, easily taken in by Herr Hitler.
Churchill was just the right man for the right time.

Oh, come on Oreo, Hitler wasn't so bad after all compared to the racist Churchill.
Apparently.

🤔

Allira

Oreo

Poor old Chamberlain, easily taken in by Herr Hitler.
Churchill was just the right man for the right time.

Oh, come on Oreo, Hitler wasn't so bad after all compared to the racist Churchill.
Apparently.

🤔

You are very determined to turn everything into utter nonsense, aren't you? How ridiculous.

Fleurpepper

Allira

Oreo

Poor old Chamberlain, easily taken in by Herr Hitler.
Churchill was just the right man for the right time.

Oh, come on Oreo, Hitler wasn't so bad after all compared to the racist Churchill.
Apparently.

🤔

You are very determined to turn everything into utter nonsense, aren't you? How ridiculous.

No, not ridiculous, many of the arguments on here and elsewhere come very close to what Allira has said. It is just that people are very good at hiding what they are really saying under a blanket of woolly words and sentiments.