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Is it time to name the accusers?

(42 Posts)
Nonnie Fri 19-Jan-18 13:34:26

Yet another trial has been stopped due to lack of evidence and some poor man has had it hanging over him for 2 years.

I would be interested to hear your opinions on whether it is time to name those who make the accusation or make the accused anonymous too. I completely understand why it was decided not to name the accusers when that decision was made but nowadays, when so many celebrities are speaking out very openly and there is no longer any sort of stigma attached to making rape and sexual assault claims would it not be fair to name the accuser? If not, what about when their claim is found to be false, name them then and charge with an appropriate charge?

It does seem harsh that a man can have his life ruined by false accusations, his name bandied about in the media and the woman who has made the false claim gets off scot free.

I must make it clear that I don't actually know anyone in this situation.

Nonnie Mon 22-Jan-18 12:06:05

Primrose I Googled your suggestion and those first three were all about the same person who had made multiple claims. That is not what I am talking about. The recent cases where men have been on bail for up to two years for crimes they did not commit are not at all similar to a woman who is clearly a serial accuser. The father of the young man from Oxford in the most recent case said the whole family had been damaged. He said his son was 17 when the alleged rape occurred but the police waited until 3 days after his 18th birthday to charge him so he could be charged under the adult rules. He was innocent. I cannot imagine what he and his family went through.

Jess I think that day may have come. When we have celebrities being very outspoken about harassment there is no longer a stigma attached to claiming rape. The Ched Evans case surely makes my point? If he had not been named there would not have been any harassing of the claimant. Those people behaved very badly in their, mistaken, support for their hero but if there had been no publicity they could not have done so.

WilmaKnickersfit Mon 22-Jan-18 00:59:16

maryeliza my rationale for giving both parties anonymity is simply that sexual offences are perceived differently in our society. As discussed, allegations can have life long implications for both parties. It's probably the most serious crime that can come down to believing the word of one or other parties.

I would give anonymity in all cases of sexual allegations.

lemongrove Sun 21-Jan-18 20:52:54

I know it’s a sensitive topic, but I think my answer to that would be yes .I well remember the case some years ago a out a 15 year old girl accusing a male teacher of either molesting and/or rape, and he went through hell trying to establish his innocence.The girl had made it all up.
If he had been anonymous to the newspapers only a small percentage of people would have known about it.
If he had been guilty, hopefully the police would have charged him, and at that point he would be named.
So, on balance I think that both accused and accuser should be anonymous until actually sentenced.

Primrose65 Sun 21-Jan-18 18:01:00

There are reports in tabloids and broadsheets within the last few months, naming women who have falsely accused - many photos too and they were all imprisoned.
'False rape claim sentence' returned 3 different women in the first page of results, all within the last 6 months.

In the spirit of sticking with the topic, would people advocate the same anonymity for people charged and prosecuted as child rapists - I would imagine there's more stigma attached there and would be even more destructive to normal life. Nearly a third of all reported rapes are against children under 16, so they are a significant percentage. I think the conviction/acquittal rates are pretty similar.

Anniebach Sun 21-Jan-18 17:51:34

I fully agree with you Nonnie

JessM Sun 21-Jan-18 17:42:01

A difficult moral dilemma. Roll on the day when women feel confident to come forward and report rapes without feeling shame. And roll on the day when victims are not at risk of attacks in social media. In the Ched Evans case (the footballer who had sex with a young woman who was drunk) The victim was hounded by his supporters and had to change her identity, this was then revealed leading to further problems. I think the case that provoked this discussion was very regrettably delayed and poorly investigated. Massive cuts to the police and justice system probably played a part.

Nonnie Sun 21-Jan-18 17:33:47

Does anyone think that driving a young man to suicide is worth it and we should leave the law as it stands? www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11912748/Guilty-until-proven-innocent-life-after-a-false-rape-accusation.html

Nonnie Sun 21-Jan-18 17:20:15

Thanks Lemon it is difficult when people change the emphasis of the thread to something not in the original post.

lemongrove Sun 21-Jan-18 16:55:26

I agree with you nonnie either both parties should be anonymous or both named, I prefer the former .

Nonnie Sun 21-Jan-18 16:23:42

Just found this on Google from The Sunday Times. Copied it as you have to subscribe to read the whole thing.

A grave miscarriage of justice, narrowly avoided, has lessons for the legal system and our dangerously hysterical culture

The ordeal of Liam Allan must not have been in vain. The torrent of public and legal outrage following the student’s two years on bail and instant acquittal must not die away. Police and CPS failures must be analysed, punished and made unthinkable. This was a young man facing a 12-year sentence and lifelong stigma for multiple rapes, and it took the prosecuting barrister to save him.

Jerry Hayes was left spitting rivets of indignation at being put in a position of nearly wrecking a life simply because bad training and lazy procedure meant the police ignored, or never looked at, clear evidence that the accuser lied. She was, as Allan pleaded, out for revenge and had long pestered him for sex after he ended the liaison. Hayes, new to the case but an old warrior in the law, demanded her phone record (previously denied to the defence as “very personal” and not relevant). The defence sat up reading the woman’s texts, and in court the next day Hayes announced that there was no case.

Every detail is dismaying. The accused had asked for the woman’s phone to be checked because he had lost his own; police archived it or ignored what was staring them in the face. A report this year by HM Inspectorate of Constabulary and the Crown Prosecution Service indicates that the “scheduling” of evidence is “routinely poor, while revelation by the police to the prosecutor of material that may undermine the prosecution case or assist the defence case is rare”.

Liam Allan, vindicated and angry, suspects that in sex-offence cases convictions have become “like sales targets”. We know about the psychology of confirmation bias, in which the mind selects evidence that reinforces its prejudices. But to find it in the criminal justice system is horrifying. The director of public prosecutions, Alison Saunders, driven by missionary zeal over real unpunished sexual abuses, has caused unease by referring to complainants — once even after the acquittal — as “victims”. The message from police, in a backlash against decades of disgraceful nonchalance, is a soupy “You will be believed”, which has led in some cases to believing fantasists and liars.

It is hard not to see confirmation-bias culture in this case. A similar thing occurred in a case of our children’s teacher, Simon Warr, accused of fondling a pupil in a changing room 30 years earlier. Police trawled his entire career hoping for similar incidents, found none, but didn’t check the simple nuts-and-bolts fact he gave them: that colleagues could confirm that his job at the relevant period never took him anywhere near changing rooms. Or juniors. He traced a witness himself and the case collapsed in half an hour. But two years in shaming limbo meant retirement, a good career prematurely ended.

Confirmation bias in this alarmed age says that because some teachers have been abusers, some men have raped, and many victims weren’t believed, it follows that assuming guilt is the safe bet. Yet just because it has long been a dangerous world for women, that is no reason to make it so dangerous for men. It’s happening, though. And the risk is that proper rage at the system’s abuse of Liam Allan will be smothered by fashionable truisms about sexual assault: “OK, he is innocent but lots of men do get away with it.” Exposure of real sexual misconducts lately has aggravated this feverish anxiety, and a dismaying willingness to punish and smear without investigation. Aled Jones, of all people, is now off the BBC while it pokes suspiciously at a decade-old allegation reported as “inappropriate contact and messages”. This he has strongly denied. The new wisdom says that we women are perpetual victims: abused, coerced or freezing in dumb terror.

Take The New Yorker’s short story Cat Person currently overexciting the western world, in which a flirtatious woman enjoying her power suddenly cools off, but proceeds with coupling through a mixture of politeness and vanity (“Look at this beautiful girl, she imagined him thinking. She’s so perfect, her body is perfect . . . The more she imagined his arousal, the more turned-on she got”). Some seize on even that soft-porn fiction as evidence that we are always victims of male domination because, after brushing the poor mutt off with an abrupt text, the heroine gets in return one which irritably ends in the word “whore!”.

Well, that’s rude of him. Very rude. On the other hand, it is not nearly as bad a response to rejection as crying rape and trying to get your former intimate jailed for a decade, reckoning that officialdom will believe you and not him.

It should be emphasised that false accusations of sexual assault are very rare. Home Office figures suggest 4 per cent. But they do happen, and the present atmosphere of suspicion, and neurotic magnification of minor male clumsinesses may encourage more. Women are not all angels, and a sense of our historical powerlessness may make this particular weapon horribly tempting.

It mustn’t be. There have to be consequences, because sexual crime is too serious, lying about it too wicked, to be used as a weapon of the petulant. In the Allan case we know nothing of the vulnerabilities or mental problems of the woman who lied, but it will be dismaying if she is not promptly charged with perverting the course of justice. Or, at least, wasting police time. Certainly she should lose anonymity. That privilege of real victims is far too precious to be brought into disrepute.

Nonnie Sun 21-Jan-18 15:01:29

Tried Googling false accuser punishment and got nothing useful. Started reading the one shown above but it was American and I would prefer to discuss UK law rather than anywhere else. It would be helpful if anyone who has found something could put a link please. I just know that we have had several such cases in the UK news over the last few months but I haven't heard that even one of their accusers has been named or prosecuted.

I agree Day6 unless the law is changed so that the accuser is named.

Day6 Sun 21-Jan-18 14:29:41

I believe only those men convicted of rape should be named and shamed.

As others have said, it is very easy to accuse, and an innocent person's life can be ruined forever more by false allegations. Mud sticks. It must be a living hell to have to prove oneself not guilty when rape has been alleged.

Primrose65 Sun 21-Jan-18 13:31:09

There's a timely article about false rape claims here :

qz.com/980766/the-truth-about-false-rape-accusations/

It's mostly about the US, but it does cover some research from the UK too. It's interesting as it covers people who have been wrongly convicted as well as wrongly accused. One interesting point

"Contrary to popular belief, however, relatively few such accusers are seeking revenge for getting dumped or rejected by former lovers. For instance, none of the 52 cases of documented wrongful conviction in the US feature women scorned"

maryeliza54 Sat 20-Jan-18 10:55:32

Well just google ^Nonnie* you’ll find links to actual cases and research. I’m afraid it’s impossible to have a discussion about being fair to one side in this issue without discussing the potential impact on the other side. I can’t believe anyone on here doesn’t believe that men are abused as well but that doesn’t change the fact that the victims of rape and domestic violence are overwhelmingly female. There are support services offered to men. No one is saying that it’s fair to suffer from a false allegation but I’ve yet to see a response on here that sees the problems with the police and CPS and how that should be addresssd. Also what about cases like those gymnasts? A senior director in an organisation I worked in had the quote on her wall ‘ to every complex problem there is always a simple solution and it’s usually wrong’. Knee jerking to anonymity for those charged with rape is simply wrong.

Nonnie Sat 20-Jan-18 10:26:27

I reiterate that I was not opening this thread about rape or whether or not the system is fair to rape victims. This thread is about those falsely accused of sexual offences and whether the system is fairi to them.

I still have seen no evidence that any such false accusers have been named in the press or that they have been prosecuted.

It is a common misconception that it is always men who are the abusers. Men are reluctant to go to the police when abused and there is more than one form of abuse. We have seen cases on here of sons whose abusive wives/partners control them and cut them off from their families. I would argue that emotional abuse is as bad as some other forms of abuse.

I'm all for fair play and find it hard to accept that people are losing their jobs and their reputations based on accusations and nothing more.

maryeliza54 Sat 20-Jan-18 09:35:01

No one should be charged unless the evidence meets the realistic prospect test, If people are charged with any crime when this test is not met, then this decision has to be addressed. Sometimes the defence don’t do their job properly as well. Non disclosure is very serious indeed and this works in different ways - if the police don’t disclose to the CPS then the CPS may believe that the test is met through no fault of theirs. Defence should be identifying holes in the evidence and going back to ask for it. There are resource issues here as well as attitudinal ones and they will not be addressed if all the flack results in changing the law re anonymity but not in police officers/CPS/ defence not doing their job properly.

Baggs Sat 20-Jan-18 08:30:57

I still haven’t heard any argument as to why people charged with rape should have anonymity when those charged with other crimes do not.

I've been thinking this too, me. The trouble with some recent cases though is that the accused were apparently presumed guilty. The accusations against them were "believed" without evidence to back them up. That is clearly wrong and, as the former lord chief justice has said, recent cases that have been thrown out as innocence was proved at the last minute (which could have been proved earlier had the police done their work properly) will undermine juries' confidence in the justice system which could lead to convictions not being made when they should be.

maryeliza54 Sat 20-Jan-18 08:17:40

Wilma I still haven’t heard any argument as to why people charged with rape should have anonymity when those charged with other crimes do not. The message it sends is that they are ipso facto more likely to be innocent: to be the victim of a false accusation. It sets a mindset that the women are lying. I’m horrified that some posters on this thread seem to believe that false accusations are rife and that the women who do that are never punished. There are so many myths around rape just about all of which are anti victim - not naming the alleged rapist feeds into tbese myths and would make the pitifully low number of guilty verdicts even lower. There is still much to do re police and CPS attitudes towards rape and indeed towards all crimes which principally have women as victims. How many women murdered by ex partners in recent years have been to the police over and over again before the murder? And look at the Emily Maitlis (sp?) case - how shocking that it is only now a private members bill is trying to beef up the legislation ( which itself was only enacted relatively recently). As for the heartbreaking case of the gymnasts, how can anyone believe that it should be made even easier for men guilty of such behaviour to go unpunished so that a tiny number of men be unfortunately the victims of false allegations? As I’ve said before,put more resources and responsibilities onto the police and CPS at the pre-charging stage to flush out false allegations - that’s the right way to go.

WilmaKnickersfit Sat 20-Jan-18 02:24:20

I don't know what the solution is to the kind of cases cold mentioned. However, it's my understanding that many of the abused knew others who were or might have been abused. That would be one way of identifying multiple potential victims.

WilmaKnickersfit Sat 20-Jan-18 02:20:18

No, I don't think the accusers should be named, but I do agree that neither should the accused unless they are found guilty.

In 2016 only 7% of those accused of rape allegations were charged. This isn't because of false allegations, it's because the Crown Prosecution Service is not confident of a successful prosecution. In some areas it is as low as 2. 5%. Although the number of prosecutions has increased, that is an appalling state of affairs. I believe that to name the accusers will reduce that number even more.

In October last year the Director of Public Prosecutions spoke publicly about rape accusations. She stressed that if the accused is acquitted of date rape that does not mean they were the victim of false accusations. She said only a very small minority of accusations were false and the accusers prosecuted receive extremely heavy sentences.

Don't name the accused or the accusers unless there is a guilty verdict.

Cold Sat 20-Jan-18 01:04:21

It is a very difficult balance to strike between the rights of the accused and victim.

However sometimes naming the accused does uncover much larger crimes - as people find the strength to come forward when they know they are not alone such as in the case of the black taxi rapist Worboys.

Today I listened to some of the most terrible stories of young sexual abuse survivors, mostly gymnasts, who had been systematically groomed and sexually abused under the guise of medical treatment for pain by the USA's Team Doctor (who also worked as a University doctor and with a school for young children with autism) for a period that spanned over 20 years.

The case started with a single person and there are now over 140 complainants - including gold medalists in gymnastics at recent Olympic and World Championships. If there had been anonymity the extent of the abuse would never have been uncovered.

maryeliza54 Fri 19-Jan-18 23:04:58

There are women in prison who have been found guilty of making false allegations of rape - it does not go unpunished and they ARE named at their trials. So why the claims that they all go unpunished - completely untrue. And compared with the thousands of rapists who go unpunished every single year. Maybe mothers of sons should stop worrying about their precious sons being falsely accused and instead concentrate on bringing them up to respect women and understand what consent really means and avoid ambiguous sexual encounters.

Anniebach Fri 19-Jan-18 18:48:49

but this doesn't change the fact that if innocent a life is ruined, a family is affected too. No use saying it rarely happens , it does happen . I don't have a son but I couldn't feel stronger about this than if I did. Falling off a cliff is either an accident or suicide, being falsely accused of rape is neither it is making an innocent person suffer and there isn't a thing he can do about it.

Baggs Fri 19-Jan-18 18:30:43

There is no deterrence to saying someone has raped you even if they haven't because the police have been told to "believe" all accusations of rape. One can understand why this instruction came about but it is not a good or just instruction. All complaints of rape or sexual assault should, of course, be listened to, taken seriously, and investigated properly, but that's not the same as just "believing" before evidence has been thoroughly checked.

Meanwhile young men's lives have been wrecked when they have been falsely accused and publicly named. Something is wrong about how these cases are dealt with and it's certainly wrong that a woman can get away with falsely accusing a man. I don't have a son but I can imagine how I'd feel if it were my son who was so unfairly accused. Can't everyone?

Nonnie Fri 19-Jan-18 18:23:57

But Primrose they are not named and in the paper, that is one of my points. I have seen nothing to indicate that they have been prosecuted, if I had I would not have raised this. I can understand that in the past it was right to not name them because there was a mind set that they may have brought it upon themselves. That is no Longer the case and I think they should be named because of the damage they have done to an innocent person.

Now we have socialism media as evidence I think more cases will be thrown out.