Project Hear

I was talking of the place of the Balkan countries on the world stage. Not their economic development. It is exceptional to find a Balkan country on the high table and central core of any of the major international meetings. There is a central cabal, usually of the US, Russia, China, the UK with France, Germany not far behind, then countries like India, Brazil.

Out of Europe I think we will soon be among the also-runs and tag-alongs.

We all now know for sure that the 2016 referendum was ill-conceived, fraudulent and won by lies. No-one knew exactly what deal might be achieved after negotiation. Now we do. No one voted to be worse off. A lot of people believed the leavers lies.

How could offering the electorate the opportunity to vote to decide between the deal that has now been negotiated (which is obviously not the have-cake-and-eat-it deal that was promised) and the status quo, which has been shown to be the best for our country, ever be undemocratic???.

and the Balkan countries will still be members of the EU.

with a status on a par with one of the Balkan countries
It could be worse
we have "Balkan" relatives and last time we went they were building new roads at a much faster rate than in the UK (actually probably before they joined the EU).
They just got on with it.

Well, it was a 'shall we remain?' referendum in 1975, Labaik, we were already in. But as I recall it wasn't contaminated by lies, illegality and foreign interference.

So do I. We had a referendum to join [I think ]so why have another one to leave. Should have left everything as it was....

I think that having a second referendum is undemocratic full stop. It went to referendum, the majority voted out, so out we go. I do not think it right for the Remainers, of whom I am one, to try and get their ways by underhand and democratically dubious ways

Apart from the fact that we elect our MPs to represent us and they should make the decisions, not opt out of all the difficult ones.

I do think it would be impossible to have any referendum of any subject at the moment that would not be based on lies and misinformation.

You don't think a referendum that wasn't based on lies and misinformation would be a good idea, then ?

I can see the result of any second referendum being even more strongly weighted in favour of Leave.
That’s not the point though, we have had a referendum in favour of leaving and we will leave in due course.

Leavers are not 'worried' about a second referendum, they just see no reason for it. Who is to say that a second referendum wouldn't be full of lies and misunderstandings.

I very much doubt whether we will know the facts and not be overwhelmed with lies and misinterpretations second time round as we were first time.

Time our MPs took note that about half the population are not been listened to.

A second referendum now we know the facts (or, at least, some of the realities) is essential. But first, TM and co need to remember that old maxim that if you always do what you've always done, you're always going to get what you've always got.

And Leavers need to take note of how many of their wealthy heros have already moved money, tax responsibilities and business interests to mainland Europe.

People will look back on this as the craziest time in British history.

The economy is already badly damaged and the only reasons a stubborn part of the government wants to plough ahead - despite being found in contempt of Parliament and having the biggest defeat there's ever been on a motion - are as follows:

1. They are not listening to anybody, while making repeated attemps to get others to change their minds.
2. They want to scare us into accepting TM's deal and to scare the EU into coming up with changes they can't possibly make without reducing protection for their own settled member country - Ireland (and if the situation were reversed with Ireland wanting to leave, we'd expect the EU to back us to the hilt). The Tories are even prepared to risk peace in NI, much to the horror of those of us who remember the terror of the 70s and 80s.
3. The government fears a backlash from Leavers more than from Remainers. Much of this has been whipped up by politicians and certain newspapers who will be the first to condemn any ensuing consequences.
4. This whole debacle is successfully deflecting our attention from the absolute mess we are in from Tory austerity and cruel policies.
5. The Tories still believe they will get a fantastic deal from Donald Trump, despite all evidence to the contrary worldwide. It makes you wonder what he has promised/threatened if we stay in the EU, which he is vehemently against because of its strength as a trading bloc.

I don't share that opinion MOnica. That referendum should be nul and void for all the reasons we both know.

Having a different referendum based upon the deal or staying in the EU would not be a second referendum it would be a different referendum upon clear information about what the deal means. Yes, there would still be people who voted against straight bananas: drunken bureaucrats; stop all immigration; all EU rules are bad: want to go back to just after the war and other irrelevant 'reasons'. We need campaigns based on what is best for the future of our country and nothing else.

I keep asking what Leavers are worried about in another referendum but no one ever answers. Why?

Nonnie There was a referendum and the result of the referendum was Leave. I absolutely believe that we have to go ahead with that referendum result.

Having second (then third, fourth, fifth.......) referendums to try to change the result, is to me a complete abrogation of democracy. There is, anyway, no call for a second referendum from the majority who voted leave - why should there be?

We have voted leave - and we have to go. I really do not see that how we go matters.

winter I totally agree about TM. Up until recently I thought she must have had something up her sleeve or she wouldn't have behaved like that. How wrong I was!

As for DC, not so sure. Didn't we have the referendum because he failed to renegotiate our deal with the EU? Not blaming him because his inability to change things should have given us all the message that a good deal was never going to happen. I can't think of a good reason why the EU should make it a good deal for us. Why should they give us everything?

What is needed for the PM is Project Listen.
Failure to listen has been her principal failing all along. Even the so-called poisoned chalice (which btw she put herself up for, the martyr talk that goes on is uncalled for) might have been less toxic in the hands of someone willing to listen to other points of view and heed advice.

Instead, everyone else was told they had to compromise while the PM didn’t budge.

Ironically, I think David Cameron would have made a more adept negotiator. And he would have listened...

MOnica it does matter though doesn't it? There is still time to stop all this chaos if enough of us try. As I have said on another thread "all it takes for evil to prosper is for good people to do nothing"

MOnica

Do you know, I do not give a toss. As soon as I heard the result of the referendum I knew Britain would gradually decline into genteel poverty, with a status on a par with one of the Balkan countries. When we are all heading for hell in a handcart, what does it matter how we do it.

Jaguar Land Rover plans extra stoppage of factories as Ford warns of £610m hit from Brexit

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/01/24/jlr-plans-extra-halt-factories-ford-warns-610m-hit-brexit/

News from JLR

In a message to staff JLR management said: "Due to potential Brexit disruption we will declare a week or production stand-down 8th - 12th April.

varian no thought is given to those who voted Remain. MPs seem to have forgotten that the other half of the population has opinions too.

You are right Nonnie. All EU countries would have to agree to an extension and would only do so for a good reason, such as a GE or another referendum, even then probably only for a short time because of the upcoming EU elections.

What we can do unilaterally would be to revoke Article 50 and I believe that is what should be done.

TM has tried for two and a half years to find an acceptable solution to the brexit conundrum. The promises that won the vote were lies full of fantasies and inherent contradictions. She has tried her best and failed to deliver what could never be delivered.

Furthermore we now know much more about the damage that has already been done to our country and how much worse it could get. We've spent billions already on this nonsense. We've had enough of the sane remainers being totally ignored. Revoke Article 50 and move on.

I'm confused about all this talk of extending the deadline. Pretty sure we were told that it would have to be a general election or another vote before the EU would agree. Has anyone told the MP they can't just do it themselves?