on both sides of the pond- the extreme left is scuppering their own cause

I can only agree with you biba. I don't understand it at all.

I understand the (UK) argument. Hopefully it'll be done and dusted by the time we head towards elections again.

However, as a leftie, I think it's best to acknowledge that labour have no chance of being elected. The same multi disciplinary system (finance, International influences, far right media influences, covert right-wing infiltration of the LB) that bought the last election will do the same again.

Corbyn was the best chance we had for a left wing government. I'll still vote labour, but I understand now that we are no longer a democracy, and that big business, finance etc will not allow us to revert to one.

From the Time today

''Left-wing activists affixed an arresting decoration to Sir Keir Starmer’s constituency office in Camden, north London, last Wednesday.

They came uninvited to put the Labour leader on macabre notice. “65,000 DEAD,” their homemade banner read. “DO SOMETHING!”

Enraged by what some supporters of Jeremy Corbyn have called an unnecessarily timid approach to Boris Johnson’s handling of the pandemic, the protesters sent the fruits of their day out to Skwawkbox, the excitable left-wing blog fiercely critical of the opposition’s new management.

They argue that Sir Keir, elected on a promise to unite the party and preserve Mr Corbyn’s radicalism on economic policy, has failed to attack the Conservatives with sufficient ferocity on coronavirus and the Black Lives Matter protests. The scene encapsulated the intense frustration of the left.''

(LB)

Autocorrect! LP/ Labour Party

Hopefully, Labour and the Democrats will never get in again.

Gagajo, I hear you. But is it better to be elected with Keir at the head- or let the Tories in again (yes, you said you would still vote Labour - but others will not, and will not persuade others either. Division will lead to defeat- and Tories in again. DISASTER - so why? How can any good come out of it?

Keir Starmer never supported Nazir Afzal in the grooming scandal in Rochdale 2012 , he didn't believe it was happening !
So with that and other criminal court subjects where he let people down I'd never vote for him if he was the last man standing.
He made many bad mistakes when he was head of the CPS. Really bad !

I think it is. However bad Labour become, they can't rival the all out incompetence, selfishness and corruption of the Tories.

But that is an academic point of view. Labour could have Obama as a leader and the election would still be fixed.

It’s a long time to the next UK election, so much so that what you are referring to hardly matters at all.
Different in the US of course, with the elections in November.

EllanVannin. Your information about Keir Starmer, Nazir Azal and the child sexual exploitation scandals in many towns (not only Rochdale) is incorrect. I won't bore everyone by repeating the truth, but google it if you want to.

As for the left attacking Starmer, I sometimes wonder if they're in the pay of the Conservative party. They are either to dim to understand what the message from the electorate in the last decade is saying, or they don't want a Labour government.

Having Corbyn as leader of the LP was a massive negative, how anyone can think he was the best chance for Labour winning is a mystery!
Keir Starmer stands a good chance of getting the party into power in four years.

Corbyn was the best chance we had for a left wing government But the majority didn't agree, otherwise he'd be where Boris is now. Starmer is the best canidate Labour have had for a long time.

Despite your right-wing opinion to the contrary lemongrove, he was a popular leader. He increased party membership hugely.

You don't have to like him to see my last sentence as a fact.

What on earth is a canidate? Candidate!

The thing is as was really clear at the time, membership doesn't equal electoral success.

And no, Chewbacca, Boris would have won, regardless of who he was standing against, for the reasons I list in my first post. As will whoever is Tory leader at the next election. Regardless of who/how good.

You could put money on it that the Labour party shoot themselves in the foot - they do it every time.

I liked Jeremy's Christmas Card a few years back. I liked his manhole interest.

However I couldn't see him as PM

To be fair I couldn't see BJ as Pm either so what do I know

I'm interested if the left GNs believe Keir will eventually run for PM when the time is right

I think we may see someone else in his place

Very good starting point would be Andy Burnham once his mayoral duty is over

I reckon he could win

If you really believe all you have stated on here Gaga then I am very surprised ( to put it mildly.)

likewise, t'other way round

EllanVannin
In defence of Kier Starmer this is what he wrote on his Twitter page.
i can assure you that he and I put right the failings of a generation of those who should have safeguarded children. He inherited failure and left success

If proven interference from outside the UK is dismissed- and if unelected Private Adivsors pull the strings and join in the above- and groups of MPs, publicly funded of course, refuse to declare who their members are, as the ERG- then what Gagajo says makes perfect, and very worrying, sick sense.

''Faculty, an AI firm hired by Dominic Cummings for the Vote Leave campaign, was paid £400,000 by the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (MHCLG) to collect and analyse tweets by UK citizens.

MORE: PR firm with links to Tory Party given £3m government contract without open tender

In June, The Guardian reported sections of the contract detailing the firm’s duties, which was released into the public domain, had been redacted.

But following a debate in the House of Lords, the government was pressured into publishing an unredacted version which describes the company’s work as “topic analysis of social media to understand public perception and emerging issues of concern to Her Majesty’s Government arising from the Covid-19 crisis”.

It also explained that AI would be applied to social media data.

Silkie Carlo, the director of privacy campaign group Big Brother Watch, which discovered the updated contract, expressed alarm at the details.''

I bet they check other Forums, like Gransnet too.