Contact with grandchildren Q&A

stressymum

I am hoping you can help with a question from a mum's perspective. My son who is 5 has an amazing relationship with his grandfather (my father) The problem is my dad has remarried and I do not get on with his wife. I try to be civil for the sake of my dad and my son but am finding it increasingly difficult. There are good reasons for the breakdown in relationship between me and her and although I have tried my best to put them behind me her actions are making it impossible. I don't know how to move forward without the relationship between my father and son suffering. Hope you can help

Stressymum,

It's so good that you're actively doing your level best to maintain the very
special relationship between your little boy and his grandfather - and that
you're digging deep to do this for his sake is to your credit. Perhaps you
could ask your father for some advice about how to make things run a little smoother between you and his new wife - explain your concerns, tell him that you'd dearly like to keep up the contact with your grandson, but that you're finding some things difficult.

Perhaps it might suit you all to consider a different venue for meeting up or maybe a different activity. Sometimes a small tweak might help give your meet- ups a different perspective, and an opportunity to get to know each other a little better, or just find a way of rubbing along for the sake of your son and your dad.

If you’d like to discuss this in more detail, do call our helpline on 0845
434 9585 or go to our website.

Maniac

I agree with Minty that title of this thread is not helpful

I have stopped posting about this on GN. It is a daily ongoing bereavement.I try to keep active and positive and appreciate my friends.

To recap for Denise,Gill and Alyson
DS lived with girl friend for 5 years before they married
GS born 2 yrs later- everyone delighted. They persuaded me to move nearer. DIL came with me to view flat and helped me to move!
I was available- but never called without being invited- still worked part-time. My help was in demand - DIL went back to work and GS into nursery at 6 mths.
I collected GS from nursery -cared for him until Mum was home.
I thought we had a good relationship - didn't criticise or give advice.- even invited to share holiday in Maldives when GS was 16 mths - wonderful for all of us - they were able to go diving and out with friends in the evening and I have great memories/photos of time spent with GS .

Bombshell 9 mths later. DIL announced she was leaving marriage and taking GS with her!!! would not even consider mediation or counselling.
She went to work for a 'friend 'of theirs - soon moved in with him.!!
Fast forward –DS and DIL divorced and for 9 years DS was an 'every other weekend 'dad.
Istill managed to see GS- sleepovers at my house,days out together, collecting from school,playing,reading,painting,cooking. We had such fun times
Meanwhile ex DIL married 'friend' and had 3 more children by him..
Early in 2011 conflict between DS and new stepdad lead to alienation of GS and complete denial of all contact between GS and paternal relatives .
DS applied to court- false accusations of him and of me- judgement given against us -and no opportunity for appeal. DS and I have had NO contact whatsoever with GS for over three years.

Please Grandparents Assoc. and Relate don't tell me to keep in contact .Phone,email ,cards,letters all blocked-accusations of stalking and harassment. What else can I do? -apart from sending loving thoughts.
I grieve most for what is happening to the mind of my GS.What kind of husband /father will he become?
His paternal grandfather died recently estranged from his GS. I foresee the same thing happening to me.

Hi Maniac,

As you recognise yourself, the fact that the court judgement went
against you has significantly impacted on your chances of restoring contact and there are no easy solutions in cases such as these. I'm sure you'll have considered seeking legal advice to see if the accusations can be overturned or if applying to the courts again is even a possibility.

Some of the family lawyers on our list offer an initial free 20 minute interview, but please let them know where you saw their details.

Alternatively, Resolution (a family lawyer organisation) would be able to point you in the right direction.

We realise that the usual forms of indirect contact are not appropriate for
you, which narrows down your options still further. Some grandparents keep
a memory box of cuttings, writings, poems and special items that can be
shared/given to grandchildren at an appropriate time.

If he hasn't done so already, your son could also seek help for his own
contact from Families Need Fathers on 0300 0300 363.

Yogagirl

Hello Denies, Gill & Alyson

Can my granddaughters step-family stop me seeing her? I have a very special bond with my precious GD, as she lived with me before & after her birth, is no blood relation to her step-family, yet they have cut me out of her life & her brothers, for no reason & I haven't seen or heard of them for nearly two years, which has broken my heart.
I went to court for visitation rights, but it didn't get to the last court hearing, I went 3 times, each time a different Judge, the first time they didn't show & lied saying they had not been informed, which I proved they had. They believed the lies & deceit of her step family, my s.i.l mother wrote the statements & I didn't have a lawyer so didn't do well in the hearing!
I had said or done nothing wrong, apart from taking my daughter in & helping her, when she was stopped from going back into their family home & seeing her babies after a big argument. They have now brainwashed my daughter against me & the rest of our family, not one member of our family sees her or her children, & I'm afraid for my daughter & granddaughter.

Dear Yogagirl,

You say that you are afraid for your daughter and granddaughter: if the child is at risk, it is extremely important to report this to the NSPCC or the local authority's safeguarding team. The NSPCC can make an anonymous report to the relevant local authority. The number to report a child at risk is 0808 800 5000. If you'd prefer not to report this yourself, please call us on 0845 434 9585.

We're very sorry for your situation. Currently, those with ‘parental responsibility’ have the right to determine who their child sees or spends time with (see www.grandparents-association.org.uk/kc/parental-responsibility.html for more information).

Currently, many grandparents face representing themselves in court due to the changes in legal aid, and this can sometimes lead to an imbalance in the court hearing. It may be worth talking to a family lawyer (some of whom offer a free initial interview) to discuss what your options are. We have a list on our website. If there isn’t one near to you, Resolution (the family law organisation) - www.resolution.org.uk/ - would be able to help you find one. If you’d like to discuss this in more detail, do call our Helpline on 0845 434 9585 or go to our website.

Freedove14

Hello,
We share grief and sadness with other parents of Narcisstic Son in Laws (SiL) and Daughter in Laws (DiL). We (my partner & I) have been trying to seek solace from people who have experienced the same problems from their children marrying into abusive and controlling relationships, who ultimately control you (the parent/grandparents) and bring terrible grief and constant anguish into your lives through fears of consequential losses for you and your child/grandchild. There is no winning - you stand up for yourself - you're out, or you put up with the abuse/blackmail - it gets worse.

Our question is to people that have experienced similar problems directly or indirectly in families, or to counsellors who help in these Narcissistic/Victim relationships - how does one cope with the ongoing abuse and concerns? Especially if it is your child who is trapped in an unhappy abusive marriage, where ultimately it is not your choice to do anything about, and you find your 'voice' is taken away (removed by creating family war and eventual isolation) so you can't do anything about it anyway.

Our sad story is that we've huge ongoing concerns for our son who we used to be very close to, he's now isolated and trapped in a terrible marriage with a Narc wife since our granddaughter was born a few years ago. She gradually exposed her true side after the birth to the point that it became intolerable - her rudeness and demands were and still are astounding.

We became very close to our granddaughter, whom we bonded with love from day one. We babysat loads (by our son and DiL's requests) in fact at times our DiL clearly wanted more help than we could give! However, whatever we did was never enough which she showed in many Narc ways, and slowly but eventually she found a way to get us out of the picture. We believe this is because she did not like our good influences on 'her family' and the fact that over time we clearly did not get on with her. This was after us both having done absolutely everything she demanded of us to help their family (NOT being 'interfering' or treating them as children as we were often accused) then finally accused of being terrible influences and 'crazy' even, and that's not all!

To back track over time it was clear she was using our son for her own gain, and us too, to do everything for her for an easy life and us doing all the work, she acted like she had a right to treat us that way, but nothing was enough to please her, and slowly our DiL cottoned on that we could see through her manipulations of us all.. We ended up having a massive argument (one that she had been looking for a long time) when she projected all her wrongdoings onto us and there was nothing we could say or do because her mind was made up - we had to be out! The smear campaign followed!.. Fortunately, the majority know these accusations are unwarranted, but these people cannot understand why our son would allow such accusations. They cannot comprehend how in fear of losing his daughter he is. This is why relating our stories to people that have not experienced such pain (by being a Narc victim or target) just cannot understand why someone would put up with this abuse.

Our son is a bright intelligent chap, and if anyone told him several years ago this would be happening to him and his parents, he would find it all completely unacceptable and intolerable and would not have stood for it - but now he is broken down and seemingly a changed person in order to be obedient and do his duty to keep in with her, for the sake of his daughter. Our granddaughter is still young and appears not outwardly affected, and we can only hope she is ok. The fact that our son is still there must help address the balance, but we are unsure if this is good or bad for a young child as she must hear the bullying.. There is no easy answer, and it is not our decision at the end of the day.

So to complete the picture, two years down the line we have had no direct contact with our DiL, but she still communicates by proxy through our son (making out it is him when we clearly know it isn't) with a long list of unreasonable conditions put on us by her, on every tiny thread of a relationship that we're allowed left with our son and granddaughter. We want more than anything to cut ties with her completely on the NO CONTACT rule (the only way to deal with Narcs) but we cannot, as we have to go along with it, for fear that she will completely pull the plug and we will never see our son or granddaughter again.

We wake every day with fear in our hearts for our son and his sanity, but he is so caught up in his Narc's tangle of distortion that we cannot talk to him properly anymore - she has built a solid wall between us. Even when we do briefly see him, it is like she is sitting on his shoulder. No one it seems can talk to him anymore (friends or family) she has put the fear in us all. All our friends who know us and our son from pre-Narc days, cannot believe how bad this has got, how undeserved and unreasonable and crazy this all is, and how our DiL has so much control over us all by coming between us through fear......

The story is too long to relate in one, but we hope to share with other parents in fear of their children and grandchildren's welfare and safety. Plus it would be helpful to know how to cope with this extreme concern on a long term basis. This could go on for years, and keeping our strength up and sanity ready for when the time comes to help our son and maybe our granddaughter when needed is difficult to keep up, with so many twists and turns (which happen quite regularly)...

To clarify, we have been advised by counselling to attempt to stay involved enough to at least have contact with our son and granddaughter whilst she is growing up, but it is hard when this means that we still have contact by proxy with our DiL. She uses this excuse as a method to still get to us by various Narc means, we have to put up with all the ridiculous conditions and restrictions put upon us in order to do this and keep family contact. We find that even though we adhere to all conditions, things do not improve at all to anywhere near normal relations. So our contact with our son and granddaughter is very limited and controlled and there is nothing we can do about it.

Our main fear is for our son and how he is coping with this continual abuse who we believe is now not able to share this with anyone. Previous to his total 'conditioning' he was able to talk to us on occasions, he knew it was all wrong, but felt he had to do everything demanded of his wife to keep in there with his daughter. He is torn as he fears that his wife will turn on him (she has done previously) so he is now stuck. We all know that his wife is a law unto herself and would make life impossible if he should leave, smear campaign, loss of his child, house, finances... Anyone that has had dealing with a Narc spouse will know that no court can control Narc actions. So we are all at a loss, and can only hope freedom and peace will come to all of us somehow one day, and soon, before too much more emotional damage is done.

How do we all cope until that freedom comes is a never ending open question? Our hearts go out to all Narc victims whoever you are, no one deserves to be so badly treated and controlled to the point that they are not even allowed to have a mind, identity or life they can call their own anymore. If you can help with some guidance through knowledge and experience, any advise would be gratefully received.

We realise this is a long story, but thank you for reading and listening.
Freedove

Dear Freedove,

We're very sorry to hear of the great difficulties that your son and daughter-in-law's relationship presents to you and the implications for contact with your granddaughter - unfortunately there are no easy answers.

Because grandparents have no automatic rights to see their grandchildren, they sometimes have to weigh up how much unreasonable behaviour they are willing to tolerate in order to maintain a relationship with their grandchildren. This can be a difficult and arduous path, but may, in the long run, mean that you eventually have the relationship that you so wish for. As another respondent has said, in such circumstances, the most important thing is to try to keep the communication channels open, so that when the time comes, you can be there to provide the love and support you so desperately want to give now.

We have a number of support groups for grandparents who have difficulty seeing their grandchildren, which you may wish to consider. More information is on our or contact our helpline on: 0845 434 9585 website.

MaryXYX

I've recently been through a bitter divorce. One of my children is very supportive, most are rather cool and a couple have said they don't even want me to send birthday cards to the grandchildren. I don't see any way I can do anything about my relationships with the g-children in that case.

Half my family are in the same religious sect as I was and my ex-wife (sic) still is. It's better at breaking families than mending them.

I don't really have a specific question - I just don't have any ideas.

Dear Mary,

When facing refusal of all types of contact, it can seem impossible to know what steps you can take to improve things. I wonder if you've thought of writing to those of your children who are refusing contact? Sometimes, this is more effective than other options such as a legal approach or a conversation when things are already highly emotionally charged.

We have a letter template on our website that helps people to write a neutral, non-judgemental letter setting out the important reasons for grandchildren to keep in contact with their grandparents: www.grandparents-association.org.uk/images/model_letter.pdf.

Another idea would be to consider family mediation as this can help to resolve disagreements, or if these steps fail, and depending on the ages of the children, you could try applying for a Child Arrangements Order for contact through the courts. This is very much a last option, and there are no guarantees as to the outcome.

For more information on trying to restore contact with grandchildren, look at our Factsheet page or contact our helpline on: 0845 434 9585.

Sparklefizz

My daughter is nearly 40 and has recently divorced her husband after 13 years of marriage. She has 3 children – a daughter of 19 who was the result of a young fling, and 2 children of 12 and 6 by her husband. We used to be very close because I brought up her and her brother as a single parent, and when she became pregnant while at university, I was very supportive during her pregnancy and was there at the birth, and had both my daughter and the baby living with me for 20 weeks each year while she finished her studying. I supported her both financially and emotionally, and she could not have finished her degree without me. I was so proud of her and adored my granddaughter.

However, for the last 3 or 4 years she has become more and more cold with me. I kept asking her if I’d upset her but she would give some flippant reason for not being in touch. Suddenly it was me making all the contact, and when we spoke she was cool and unfriendly. It was terribly hurtful after we’d been so close but I told myself that it was because she was unhappy with her husband. Eventually she took the children and left him. I had to press her for her new address because she didn’t offer it. She suddenly seemed extremely happy and I suspected she’d met another man but when I asked her, she just said she had “a queue of people” wanting to take her out, and fobbed me off. I felt this wasn’t the truth but that she would tell me when she was ready. I was hopeful we could get back to normal.

If you knew how very close she and my son and I used to be, we have gone from one extreme to the other. I never would have believed she could change like this and I just don’t know why.

I only know what is going on in her life from Facebook because she posts the minutiae of her life on there with lots of gushing messages about how much she loves her friends, so when she suddenly posted up a photo of herself in evening dress wrapped around a man 3 months after her divorce, I knew my instincts had been right and that this must be the new man, although she had not had the grace to tell me she’d met anyone.

When I texted her to ask about him, she said she had told me, but she must realise that she hadn’t. I reminded her that her answer had been “there’s a queue” and she ignored it. It turns out she was seeing him for 6 months before she left her husband, so it’s been ongoing for a year now but I still haven’t been invited to meet him despite my inviting them here. I want her to be happy and if he makes her and the children happy, I am pleased for her.

Every time I try to get in touch, she says she’s terribly busy and I now have to book an appointment to speak to her on the phone because she is never available. I send her a message on Facebook asking when it would be convenient to ring her, and she will give me a “possible window” 2 or 3 days hence. If I phone on the offchance I can never get her.

Meanwhile she has plenty of time to post inane rubbish on Facebook but she makes no contact with me except to tell me what the children want for their birthdays. We speak perhaps twice a month if I keep pushing to phone her, and I see her and the children about 3 times a year, but again I have to keep pushing. When I do see her for a few hours, she spends much of the time on her phone texting, and one time even reading a news article, when I asked her what she was doing. I chat away to her but she makes it clear she’s not listening. After I’ve cooked some lunch and she has hardly spoken to me but spent a couple of hours on her phone, they go home. It’s so rude to behave like this.

It’s hard to make conversation with her because she doesn’t keep the conversation going and because I feel I have no part in her life and have no idea what her life is about any more. It’s the same with my grandchildren – I have no idea how they’re getting on at school or what they do with themselves unless she posts something on Facebook. When I see the children, they are not very talkative with me because we hardly know each other any more.

I have been completely pushed out and I have no idea why. I’ve told her several times that I’m frightened we are losing touch but she doesn’t respond to that, and matters don’t improve. I am worried that if I put a foot wrong she will say “That’s it!” and I will never see any of them again. In fact I sometimes wonder if she is pushing me to do that, as if she wants me to snap (which I often feel like doing), so that she can break off all contact, yet blame me.

She lives a 2 hour drive from me which I can’t manage to do. I also find it difficult to travel to see them by train because I have longstanding M.E. which I’ve had since my daughter was a teenager, but even if I did manage the train journey, there’s no guarantee I would see them when I arrived or that I’d be welcome.

How can I manage this? (I'm sorry this is so long). Thanks in desperation.

Dear Sparklefizz,

I'm sorry you are feeling so very upset about losing the closeness you had with your grandchildren. At 19, and an adult, the eldest grandchild is able to make his/her own decisions. I wondered if you'd thought of contacting them? Perhaps you could write or maybe send a card with a loving message saying that you're always there if they ever need you.

Remember that Skype is also a great way to have chats and catch up (phone's great too of course!). On a separate note, I wonder if you've thought of writing a letter to your daughter? We have a letter template, which is written sensitively and is non-judgemental. You can adapt this to your own situation. We also have an article on family mediation that may be able to help resolve some of the problems. There is plenty of information about this on our website: www.grandparents-association.org.uk/ or please call our Helpline on 0845 434 9585.

wondergran

My then teenage daughter had a baby and because she was so young she and my little grandson lived with me. I do everything with and for him and have done for three years. I adore him and because I am almost like a parent to him (his dad is a total waste of space) I have grown so, so close to him.
Suddenly my daughter gets new boyfriend and it's caused a bit family rift. Be cause I have got angry about so much immature behaviour she has taken GS away, no idea where. I was text that she won't be coming back and she may stop me seeing him. All this upheaval for a bloke who has been in the scene for about 2 months.
I can't stop crying. I know the pain that other op are going through. It's pure hell and even worse because others have all the power and control.

Dear Wondergran,

I'm sorry to hear you're finding it so hard - your daughter has decided to start a new relationship and to take her son with her (which of course is her right as the person with parental responsibility) but after three years, this must be a huge wrench.

She may be making a big mistake - only time will tell - and I appreciate that you got angry about her immaturity and voiced this. Unfortunately, as you may be aware, grandparents have no automatic legal rights to have contact with their grandchildren. Your first option is perhaps a simple sorry (by text as this is your only communication) and to hope that your daughter will understand.

It might be best to offer an olive branch that you can build on. A simple apology often goes a long way or you may feel that getting help from a professional mediator may help. If it helps you to gain contact with your grandson it will be worth it - good luck. If you'd like to discuss this in more detail, do call our Helpline on 0845 434 9585 or go to www.grandparents-association.org.uk.

boheminan

Hello.
My three daughters and myself had a very acrimonious split three years ago. Bridges are very slowly being built but my eldest daughter, the mother of my two only grandchildren, absolutely refuses me any contact with them.
I've not seen my grandson since he was 2yrs (he's now 4yrs) and I've never seen my grand daughter (I wasn't even told when she was born).

My daughter knows this is breaking my heart, as the little ones don't know me (nor I them). I feel that whatever happened between their mum and myself should not be allowed to affect them in this way.

I have broached the subject many times with my daughter. She will now meet up with me, but there's no sight on the horizon that I will ever see my grandchildren. I feel the children are being used as weapons/pawns against me and I have no idea as to how I can gently persuade her to change her mind. I'm not asking to see them unsupervised, just to actually see them with their mum would be enough for me.

Please, if you have any advice as to where I can go from here, I'd gratefully like to hear it. Many thanks...

Dear Bohemian,

You mention that you had a difficult split 3 years ago, but on a positive side you are building bridges albeit slowly. I understand your need to see the grandchildren but your daughter may also be considering the impact of this on them and what will happen if you should fall out again. Because of this she may well be protecting the grandchildren from any further emotional upset until she feels confident that your relationship is on a firmer footing.

Try to see things from all points of view. Also, grandparents don't have any legal rights so the fact that you have already made progress is encouraging, even if it may be slower that you would want. Mediation may be another avenue to try. However, at present it sounds as if you should bide your time as things are going in the right direction. If you'd like to discuss this in more detail, do call our Helpline on 0845 434 9585 or go to www.grandparents-association.org.uk/general-information/factsheets.html.

Marelli

Hello Denise, Gill and Alyson,

A month ago my daughter parted from her husband of 22 years. She could no longer live with his very controlling ways and although she wanted my granddaughter to leave with her, she refused, preferring to stay with her dad, who had never stood up for my daughter in any family arguments/issues. My daughter led quite a lonely life within the family and many times my granddaughter would shout at her to leave the home saying, "Why don't you just go - Dad and I don't want you. He should divorce you" or something along those lines.
Now that my daughter has left, and the Separation Order has been set in motion, my granddaughter refuses to speak to her mother or reply to her daily texts. I asked my daughter if I may text my granddaughter and ask if she'd like to meet to do a bit of shopping and to talk if she wished. My daughter agreed and I texted her, but have had no response. It's only a month since the break-up, but I'm really worried that my granddaughter will think I don't love her and that we lose touch. She's nearly 15.
I'd really appreciate any advice you may be able to offer me. Thank you.

Hi Marelli,

We're very sorry to hear about this situation. As you've said, this is still very early days, and there's still time for things to change as everyone readjusts to the changes they’re facing. Your granddaughter may be experiencing a whole range of emotions, including divided loyalties and although she still loves you, there could be many reasons why, just at this moment, she does not feel able to contact you herself or accept your offers of contact.

However, just letting her know that you love her dearly, are always there for her, that you are not taking sides or apportioning blame, may help. Texting can be a wonderful way of communicating, but doesn't always lend itself to conveying meaningful and sensitive messages. Perhaps it's worth considering sending her a lovely card with a ‘light touch’ caring message in it - making no requests or demands, but just letting her know you're there and you care.

You don't mention how often you would normally see each other, but do remember that teenagers can be preoccupied with themselves at the best of times, are going through lots of changes themselves and she will have the added pressure of coping with her parents' split. If you'd like to discuss this in more detail, do call our Helpline on 0845 434 9585 or go to www.grandparents-association.org.uk/general-information/factsheets.html.

stressymum

I am hoping you can help with a question from a mum's perspective. My son who is 5 has an amazing relationship with his grandfather (my father) The problem is my dad has remarried and I do not get on with his wife. I try to be civil for the sake of my dad and my son but am finding it increasingly difficult. There are good reasons for the breakdown in relationship between me and her and although I have tried my best to put them behind me her actions are making it impossible. I don't know how to move forward without the relationship between my father and son suffering. Hope you can help

Dear stressymum,
Is it possible that your father's wife is feeling insecure about the relationship that you have with your dad, and does dad know about the difficulties that you have with his new wife? Dad may feel stuck between a rock and a hard place at the moment, and explaining to him that you have concerns about relationships breaking down could help him understand the circumstances better.

Relate offers family counselling and perhaps you, your dad and his wife could attend so that you can all communicate honestly in a safe and confidential environment, thus reducing the 'threat' to the grandfather/grandson relationship.

Maniac

I agree with Minty that title of this thread is not helpful

I have stopped posting about this on GN. It is a daily ongoing bereavement.I try to keep active and positive and appreciate my friends.

To recap for Denise,Gill and Alyson
DS lived with girl friend for 5 years before they married
GS born 2 yrs later- everyone delighted. They persuaded me to move nearer. DIL came with me to view flat and helped me to move!
I was available- but never called without being invited- still worked part-time. My help was in demand - DIL went back to work and GS into nursery at 6 mths.
I collected GS from nursery -cared for him until Mum was home.
I thought we had a good relationship - didn't criticise or give advice.- even invited to share holiday in Maldives when GS was 16 mths - wonderful for all of us - they were able to go diving and out with friends in the evening and I have great memories/photos of time spent with GS .

Bombshell 9 mths later. DIL announced she was leaving marriage and taking GS with her!!! would not even consider mediation or counselling.
She went to work for a 'friend 'of theirs - soon moved in with him.!!
Fast forward –DS and DIL divorced and for 9 years DS was an 'every other weekend 'dad.
Istill managed to see GS- sleepovers at my house,days out together, collecting from school,playing,reading,painting,cooking. We had such fun times
Meanwhile ex DIL married 'friend' and had 3 more children by him..
Early in 2011 conflict between DS and new stepdad lead to alienation of GS and complete denial of all contact between GS and paternal relatives .
DS applied to court- false accusations of him and of me- judgement given against us -and no opportunity for appeal. DS and I have had NO contact whatsoever with GS for over three years.

Please Grandparents Assoc. and Relate don't tell me to keep in contact .Phone,email ,cards,letters all blocked-accusations of stalking and harassment. What else can I do? -apart from sending loving thoughts.
I grieve most for what is happening to the mind of my GS.What kind of husband /father will he become?
His paternal grandfather died recently estranged from his GS. I foresee the same thing happening to me.

Dear Maniac,
Ok, I won't tell you to keep in touch, physically! As you clearly state, you are grieving, the losses you have experienced are great and your sense of injustice is high. These do not stop you caring. In the absence of contact I wonder if you would consider making a memory box? You can put letters in there, small pieces of writing that echo your feelings about how you miss your grandson, also photos of places you visit and attaching little messages perhaps saying how you'd like to take him there one day or share these memories. You don't send this to him, but keep it safe and one day he may receive it. Doing this lets you express emotions in the moment and will demonstrate to your grandson that he was never far from your thoughts. Just an idea for you to consider.

Caramac

My son was an innocent victim of an unprovoked assault causing a permanent disability and loss of career and my mum is not the slightest bit interested. Not only has she failed to inquire even once about him, she has talked over me with trivial gossip and even lied to my face. I cannot bear to visit her again, I am so upset and angry but she wields this weird power over me and I am unsure I have the courage to not visit her. I definitely dare not tell her what I feel. Genuinely not all grandparents are nice - but then again, she wasn't a nice mum either.

Dear Caramac
I'm sorry to hear about the assault on your son and his subsequent disability. Unfortunately not all parents are 'nice'. I wonder what benefits there are in you continuing the relationship in its current form with your mum? If you 'd like things to be different then you may need to develop a different approach to your mum. What do you want from her? Work this out and then work out what resources you need to implement change.

Counselling could help you explore these things; Relate also offers family counselling and it may be easier to talk to mum in neutral surroundings (if she would engage with the process). As human beings, we all have strengths and weaknesses, perhaps your mum just isn't very good at dealing with disability and can't face talking about the reality, so covers it over with 'trivial gossip'.

It would be good to have mum's support, but in it's apparent absence I hope you have the support for you and your son that you require from other sources.

agile75

Is this a female thing?
My heart goes out to Yogagirl, Freedove and MaryXAX, but in this day and age it seems that the more you try to hang onto something the higher the price will be emotionally or otherwise.I have 12 G children and about 4 G Grandchildren and after my wife died 6 years ago none of them came to my door for the four years when I lived on my own, apart from my Daughter who has always been very close to me,I have since moved in with her, the best move I have ever made.
Before my Wife passed on we would have up to 6 G children over weekends regularly and of course I in my own mind made excuses for them like they miss their granny and that they do not like being in the house as it seems empty without their Gran being there.Most of them are up in their teens now.
I am pretty old fashioned in my views,I dont believe in children outside wedlock and having children unless people have the means to keep them and I have always told my kids that I cannot demand Love but I do demand respect

Dear agile75,
I'm sorry to hear that you had no contact with your children (bar one) and grandchildren for so long after the loss of your wife. I'm not sure whether you now have contact with them or not. Letting go emotionally is different for everyone, the way we approach life is hugely influenced by our upbringing and environment, beliefs and values; and again they will differ from one person to another.

One thing it is almost impossible to do is demand how others respond to us. At best we can hope for others to treat us as we would treat them...unfortunately, it doesn't always pan out that way.

Freedove14

Hello,
We share grief and sadness with other parents of Narcisstic Son in Laws (SiL) and Daughter in Laws (DiL). We (my partner & I) have been trying to seek solace from people who have experienced the same problems from their children marrying into abusive and controlling relationships, who ultimately control you (the parent/grandparents) and bring terrible grief and constant anguish into your lives through fears of consequential losses for you and your child/grandchild. There is no winning - you stand up for yourself - you're out, or you put up with the abuse/blackmail - it gets worse.

Our question is to people that have experienced similar problems directly or indirectly in families, or to counsellors who help in these Narcissistic/Victim relationships - how does one cope with the ongoing abuse and concerns? Especially if it is your child who is trapped in an unhappy abusive marriage, where ultimately it is not your choice to do anything about, and you find your 'voice' is taken away (removed by creating family war and eventual isolation) so you can't do anything about it anyway.

Our sad story is that we've huge ongoing concerns for our son who we used to be very close to, he's now isolated and trapped in a terrible marriage with a Narc wife since our granddaughter was born a few years ago. She gradually exposed her true side after the birth to the point that it became intolerable - her rudeness and demands were and still are astounding.

We became very close to our granddaughter, whom we bonded with love from day one. We babysat loads (by our son and DiL's requests) in fact at times our DiL clearly wanted more help than we could give! However, whatever we did was never enough which she showed in many Narc ways, and slowly but eventually she found a way to get us out of the picture. We believe this is because she did not like our good influences on 'her family' and the fact that over time we clearly did not get on with her. This was after us both having done absolutely everything she demanded of us to help their family (NOT being 'interfering' or treating them as children as we were often accused) then finally accused of being terrible influences and 'crazy' even, and that's not all!

To back track over time it was clear she was using our son for her own gain, and us too, to do everything for her for an easy life and us doing all the work, she acted like she had a right to treat us that way, but nothing was enough to please her, and slowly our DiL cottoned on that we could see through her manipulations of us all.. We ended up having a massive argument (one that she had been looking for a long time) when she projected all her wrongdoings onto us and there was nothing we could say or do because her mind was made up - we had to be out! The smear campaign followed!.. Fortunately, the majority know these accusations are unwarranted, but these people cannot understand why our son would allow such accusations. They cannot comprehend how in fear of losing his daughter he is. This is why relating our stories to people that have not experienced such pain (by being a Narc victim or target) just cannot understand why someone would put up with this abuse.

Our son is a bright intelligent chap, and if anyone told him several years ago this would be happening to him and his parents, he would find it all completely unacceptable and intolerable and would not have stood for it - but now he is broken down and seemingly a changed person in order to be obedient and do his duty to keep in with her, for the sake of his daughter. Our granddaughter is still young and appears not outwardly affected, and we can only hope she is ok. The fact that our son is still there must help address the balance, but we are unsure if this is good or bad for a young child as she must hear the bullying.. There is no easy answer, and it is not our decision at the end of the day.

So to complete the picture, two years down the line we have had no direct contact with our DiL, but she still communicates by proxy through our son (making out it is him when we clearly know it isn't) with a long list of unreasonable conditions put on us by her, on every tiny thread of a relationship that we're allowed left with our son and granddaughter. We want more than anything to cut ties with her completely on the NO CONTACT rule (the only way to deal with Narcs) but we cannot, as we have to go along with it, for fear that she will completely pull the plug and we will never see our son or granddaughter again.

We wake every day with fear in our hearts for our son and his sanity, but he is so caught up in his Narc's tangle of distortion that we cannot talk to him properly anymore - she has built a solid wall between us. Even when we do briefly see him, it is like she is sitting on his shoulder. No one it seems can talk to him anymore (friends or family) she has put the fear in us all. All our friends who know us and our son from pre-Narc days, cannot believe how bad this has got, how undeserved and unreasonable and crazy this all is, and how our DiL has so much control over us all by coming between us through fear......

The story is too long to relate in one, but we hope to share with other parents in fear of their children and grandchildren's welfare and safety. Plus it would be helpful to know how to cope with this extreme concern on a long term basis. This could go on for years, and keeping our strength up and sanity ready for when the time comes to help our son and maybe our granddaughter when needed is difficult to keep up, with so many twists and turns (which happen quite regularly)...

To clarify, we have been advised by counselling to attempt to stay involved enough to at least have contact with our son and granddaughter whilst she is growing up, but it is hard when this means that we still have contact by proxy with our DiL. She uses this excuse as a method to still get to us by various Narc means, we have to put up with all the ridiculous conditions and restrictions put upon us in order to do this and keep family contact. We find that even though we adhere to all conditions, things do not improve at all to anywhere near normal relations. So our contact with our son and granddaughter is very limited and controlled and there is nothing we can do about it.

Our main fear is for our son and how he is coping with this continual abuse who we believe is now not able to share this with anyone. Previous to his total 'conditioning' he was able to talk to us on occasions, he knew it was all wrong, but felt he had to do everything demanded of his wife to keep in there with his daughter. He is torn as he fears that his wife will turn on him (she has done previously) so he is now stuck. We all know that his wife is a law unto herself and would make life impossible if he should leave, smear campaign, loss of his child, house, finances... Anyone that has had dealing with a Narc spouse will know that no court can control Narc actions. So we are all at a loss, and can only hope freedom and peace will come to all of us somehow one day, and soon, before too much more emotional damage is done.

How do we all cope until that freedom comes is a never ending open question? Our hearts go out to all Narc victims whoever you are, no one deserves to be so badly treated and controlled to the point that they are not even allowed to have a mind, identity or life they can call their own anymore. If you can help with some guidance through knowledge and experience, any advise would be gratefully received.

We realise this is a long story, but thank you for reading and listening.
Freedove

Dear Freedove14
What a sad story, unfortunately not an isolated story. I wonder, has your son been able to access other support? Organisations such as Mankind Initiative and Families Need Fathers could offer some advice and support in an impartial way. As the father of his daughter your son does have legal rights and again, I wonder if he has explored these. Citizens Advice have lots online to look at.

I realise that, living in a controlling marriage, it may be difficult for him to access such advice, however if he works, he may be able to use some 'away from home' time to check these out.

Colluding with your DIL's behaviour will not change the situation; sadly it will just confirm for her that her behaviour is acceptable. Being there for your son and granddaughter is important, however I wonder if you could model a different way of being when visiting, you are visiting your son and his daughter not your DIL. I'm not suggesting that you be rude or ignorant but that you put a boundary around the visit, engaging with your granddaughter and son, whilst limiting your responses to your DIL. I know it is far from easy but small steps will make a difference.

MaryXYX

I've recently been through a bitter divorce. One of my children is very supportive, most are rather cool and a couple have said they don't even want me to send birthday cards to the grandchildren. I don't see any way I can do anything about my relationships with the g-children in that case.

Half my family are in the same religious sect as I was and my ex-wife (sic) still is. It's better at breaking families than mending them.

I don't really have a specific question - I just don't have any ideas.

Dear MaryXYX,
Children, even adult children, all react, and are affected, differently to parental separation and divorce, as you are experiencing. However your relationship with your children works out, the relationship with your grandchildren could be seen as a separate to that.

Would your sending card to your grandchildren further sour relationships between you? I wonder if you can respect your children's feelings regarding the divorce, but ask them to respect your wish to continue a relationship with your grandchildren.

wondergran

My then teenage daughter had a baby and because she was so young she and my little grandson lived with me. I do everything with and for him and have done for three years. I adore him and because I am almost like a parent to him (his dad is a total waste of space) I have grown so, so close to him.
Suddenly my daughter gets new boyfriend and it's caused a bit family rift. Be cause I have got angry about so much immature behaviour she has taken GS away, no idea where. I was text that she won't be coming back and she may stop me seeing him. All this upheaval for a bloke who has been in the scene for about 2 months.
I can't stop crying. I know the pain that other op are going through. It's pure hell and even worse because others have all the power and control.

Dear Wondergran,
Your sense of loss is massive, not only for your grandson, but your daughter too. I can sense the level of your anger in your letter and I wonder, also, how fearful you are about the future. Your daughter also sounds angry, and is using your grandson as a way of expressing her feelings towards you and others. Your daughter has said she may stop you seeing your grandson, this is not an absolute, so I wonder if you could ask your daughter when, where and under what circumstances would she let you see your grandson.

All that you have done has probably come from a place of caring, however it is possible that your daughter is feeling heavily criticised and is responding in ways that only exacerbate the current situation. Try and keep lines of communication as open as possible.

If your mood doesn't lift soon then please talk to your GP. You are suffering all the emotions associated with grief, compounded by your sense that others hold all the power and control.

boheminan

Hello.
My three daughters and myself had a very acrimonious split three years ago. Bridges are very slowly being built but my eldest daughter, the mother of my two only grandchildren, absolutely refuses me any contact with them.
I've not seen my grandson since he was 2yrs (he's now 4yrs) and I've never seen my grand daughter (I wasn't even told when she was born).

My daughter knows this is breaking my heart, as the little ones don't know me (nor I them). I feel that whatever happened between their mum and myself should not be allowed to affect them in this way.

I have broached the subject many times with my daughter. She will now meet up with me, but there's no sight on the horizon that I will ever see my grandchildren. I feel the children are being used as weapons/pawns against me and I have no idea as to how I can gently persuade her to change her mind. I'm not asking to see them unsupervised, just to actually see them with their mum would be enough for me.

Please, if you have any advice as to where I can go from here, I'd gratefully like to hear it. Many thanks...

Dear Boheminan,
Patience is a virtue is the saying and your patience does appear to be bearing some fruit! You have moved from no contact to some contact, which is positive.

Does your daughter talk to you about the children? I wonder if you could ask your daughter to let you see photographs of your grandchildren, if you are not already seeing any. This way you can vicariously begin a relationship with them.

It may be that until whatever you fell out about three years ago is resolved, then bigger steps forward will be slow. Do your other daughters have contact with their nieces/nephews, and are they able to offer any support?

Marelli

Hello Denise, Gill and Alyson,

A month ago my daughter parted from her husband of 22 years. She could no longer live with his very controlling ways and although she wanted my granddaughter to leave with her, she refused, preferring to stay with her dad, who had never stood up for my daughter in any family arguments/issues. My daughter led quite a lonely life within the family and many times my granddaughter would shout at her to leave the home saying, "Why don't you just go - Dad and I don't want you. He should divorce you" or something along those lines.
Now that my daughter has left, and the Separation Order has been set in motion, my granddaughter refuses to speak to her mother or reply to her daily texts. I asked my daughter if I may text my granddaughter and ask if she'd like to meet to do a bit of shopping and to talk if she wished. My daughter agreed and I texted her, but have had no response. It's only a month since the break-up, but I'm really worried that my granddaughter will think I don't love her and that we lose touch. She's nearly 15.
I'd really appreciate any advice you may be able to offer me. Thank you.

Dear Marelli,
It sounds as if your daughter has been in an abusive relationship and is safer out of it. Your granddaughter has been influenced by her father’s behaviour towards your daughter and may continue to be influenced by what he says and does. It is impossible to know exactly what is being said about your daughter and your family, and this is a very uncomfortable situation to be in.

Does your daughter believe her daughter is safe staying in the family home? As your granddaughter is not replying to her mother’s texts it is, sadly, unlikely that she will reply to you. Both you and your daughter can only continue to send messages of love, even though the lack of reply is hurtful, it is important that your granddaughter knows you are there and that you care. Your daughter may like to consider reducing the number of texts she sends...teenagers can be overwhelmed by what they may perceive as intrusion. Some time in the future she may well have a change of heart and the knowledge that you didn't give up on your relationship will help her feel ok about contacting you.

You are in a difficult place, supporting your daughter and dealing with your loss of contact with your granddaughter. Stay strong and make sure you get some support for yourself. Relate offers family counselling and this may be an option in the future.