Iraq bombings

we should indeed steer clear.

Even after the West was asked to help? (Which, according to the news, is what happened.)

In essence, I do agree with you which is why I tend to sit on the fence over this. It is not our fight to get involved in and arms should only be raised if they attack us directly. It is the people of that country that can change things (such as the pro-democracy protests in central Hong Kong that have brought central Hong Kong to a standstill) - it doesn't seem to have much of an effect when the West tries to force change. On the other hand, it doesn't sit well just watching innocent people being slaughtered.

I have the greatest respect for our armed forces and support them all the way. They are of the finest. However, I have the greatest contempt for our government who have pared our defences down to the bone yet expect our forces to continue to face danger, injury and death around the world with inadequate resources. So Iraq/Syria. We see grainy pictures of our old, tried and trusted Tornado jets firing rockets at £150,000+ a time at tiny specks in the Iraqi desert, when we are facing a vicious, widespread terrorist organisation funded by millions of dollars and with its hands on mountains of new, seized weaponry. This after the ever-corrupt Iraqi army, after years of western training and expensive re-equipment, has failed utterly and fled, leaving their nice, new weapons for the mob. So the sight of our brave fliers risking their lives in this lost cause just sickens me. The solution to all these problems must be local. It must be local troops who take on the terrorists, and our task must be to identify, encourage, support and, indeed, arm those local troops. We cannot and must not get involved again ourselves. Military tokenism will not work. We should be ring-fencing our own country and improving its defences against the world-wide proliferation of terrorism, not posturing about the world pretending we are what we are not.

A good letter Rowantree which says in a nutshell what a complete mess this situation is, and we are about to make it even messier.

Ah, grannyactivist, but THIS is a Just War.....

I was amused to read this:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/946206_10152747758543679_224699256550677702_n.jpg?oh=26a90ac1ca604e1c826d6dcf28d792b5&oe=54839EA9&__gda__=1422793696_102e252dad93ae7063784e1f4fe8d7a8

I wonder if those who liken the current situation to that of Hitler and the Nazis and support military action would be prepared to send their own children/grandchildren to fight? During the two world wars people did support military action, but at great personal cost - they lost sons, daughters and livelihoods in the process. I suspect that nowadays it's easier to be an armchair strategist when we know it probably won't cost us anything.

Thank you, petallus

Anya - well, it sounds callous, but in fact I think that yes, we should indeed steer clear. Western involvement is asking for further trouble. We won't get shot of Isis. They will just pop up again in another form. Don't kid yourself.
As to standing back and watching the slaughter, there will be that a-plenty with air strikes going on. Again, don't kid yourself that only the wicked will be eliminated. And that will further antagonise radical Muslims. You'll see more and more young people going off to train as 'freedom fighters' or plotting attacks in the Uk and USA, as I've said before.

It's a big mistake, to say the least.

Good posts Rowantree

So should we just stand back and watch the slaughter?

Iam64 I've heard this argument before somewhere - likening Isis to the Nazis. The same was said to justify the invasion of Iraq. Look where it's got us. It could have been predicted.

thatbags - the West might not post videos of beheadings but they have been and are guilty of atrocities and barbarity in the past, as now, in the name of a Just War or Civilisation. Off the top of my head: remember the Chilean coup, engineered by the USA, when thousands of their own citizens were tortured and killed? Remember the Vietnam war? Ireland, on both sides? Ireland's barbaric treatment of unmarried mothers? England's imperialism in the 19th century and after, invading country after country and 'subduing' and butchering the citizens? It's naive and wrong to suppose that barbarity and cruelty are something apart from the West. That is not to excuse Isis and al-Quaeda, but simply to point out that we in the west are not blameless.
This military action will not eliminate radicalisation of Muslims - quite the opposite. We might kill a few of them, but more will spring up in their place and they will be even more determined to get revenge on the West. Even Obama states it will take years - I think that's an understatement.

I felt that support for bombing was inevitable, and with a very heavy heart I (probably) come down on the side of military action.

I recently visited Krakow, learned more about the history of Poland and eastern Europe. I also visited Auschvitz, and Oscar Shindler's factory. I don't want to derail this discussion, but I do believe we have to learn from history. I accept the arguments above against bombing, and the pointers to various parts of the world where violence and murder are also happening.

I also worry that in taking military action, innocent people will die, and more martyrs will arise from their communities. I do hope that money for diplomacy will be increased. It feels so wrong to be following the US again, into killing innocents. I don't honestly know if I'd have voted for or against if I'd been an MP. I share's thatbags view, that these Isil people are the equivalent of Nazi's, and have to be stopped.

It looks like a significant move forward has happened today with the reclaiming of an important dam where IS have been removed from it (they apparently just 'turned off the taps' so that local people had no water). At least those people will now have water again.

What an interesting discussion.Can I ask a question which may seem very naive....have we not made huge amounts of money selling arms ,planes etc to the Saudi's.? If countries manufacture weapons and are proud of the deals they make with dodgy regimes how Can they complain when they use them. Do we never learn from history. It is just like the middle ages in Europe but on a larger more world threatening scale.

Trouble is, there are loads of modern military weapons laying about in Syria and Iraq for the taking, the Turks are reluctant to give the Kurds too much military help, yet the Kurds are the most stable of the combatants against the terrorists. Despite all the western training and new equipment the Iraqi army has proved unreliable. That dreadful expression 'mission creep' comes to mind, and I really do not want to see any more of our fine young servicemen and woman sacrificed to this mess. The role of Iran, Russia and Israel will be critical, after all those RAF bases on Cyprus are very close to Syria and its Russian bombs and rockets. Dave really shouldn't have scrapped our carriers and got rid of all those Harriers. A very false economy.

Norty Pogs!

Ohh, you are awful, Pogs!

I just think we are sleep walking into a huge trap

thatbags you may be right about Hitler but the idea of another war of that kind is scary to me. Thousands upon thousands lost their lives. I have three grandsons of fighting age.

I'd prefer a cautious approach.

Papaoscar.

Sorry I just reported your post by hitting the word report by accident. I hope my message to HQ has clarified the mistake. [sorry]

I agree with some your points but unfortunately government of any colour have to deal with some ridiculous legal restraints that make it practically impossible, not least because this country has one hand tied behind it's back because we no longer make our own legislation over our security.

Interesting thatbags re France, I hope we will do the same here but we just get so bogged down by this and that group who challenge common sense and we either bow down to pressure or take years to make a decision. I am hoping Theresa May shows what she is made of.

Apparently three suspected jihadists who have returned to France have been charged.

History and hindsight seem to share a clarity denied to those who lead us these days. The impression of precision-guided bombs which can surgically eliminate problems has been well and truly debunked, as has the folly of trying to impose western values on alien cultures. Its all happened before, and the British were heavily involved, for better or worse. So what to do now? Well, as far as the UK is concerned, there is not a lot we can do. Like it or not we just don't have the military clout any more. So probably best to do as we are doing, and join in a multi-national effort to crack down on these criminal thugs and their atrocious conduct. What we must do, though, is demand that this foolish coalition government change its defence policy now, and start to rebuild the nation's defences which they have so wantonly slashed. We must also crack-down on extremism at home and support the police, military and the courts in taking rigorous action against offenders, especially those who come back from having committed vile crimes abroad, no matter what their so-called justification.

We eliminated Hitler and his Nazis. This is the equivalent. It's not a case of can we, we simply must. They cannot be allowed to 'govern' a country.
I don't really believe that Isis supporters think everyone in the West is a devil incarnate, just as we don't believe everyone in the middle east is a devil incarnate. When did The West last circulate videos (or anything) showing the public beheadings of journalists? When did The West kidnap teenage girls and gang rape them?

I know The West isn't perfect but we have put barbarity like that behind us a long time ago.

I wonder if we are being 'primed' for another war. The problem is have we got enough trained men/ women left in our armed forces to put boots on the ground if it comes to it.