"A tragic death due to over demand and under capacity"

It can't be fly tipping if you just put things out on your own lawn for others to take if they want to, Nellie.

Coincidentally, we visited friends yesterday who said one of their neighbours had a skip and was having a big clearout.
All the neighbours are keeping a keen eye out for anything worthwhile

My DD has a pink doll's pushchair which was in skip by her house. As was inevitable on their windy hill top, it blew off the skip and landed on the path outside her front gate so she took it in for DGS.

My friend who now lives in Vancouver says it is quite usual there to put out things they do not need, for anyone to take. This is good in theory but could just be regarded as fly tipping.

That sounds very worthwhile ethel, what a pity that sometimes bureaucracy stands in the way of people who just want to help others.

Coming back to recycling unwanted household items, some friends from Australia visited us recently and were telling us about a scheme in Perth whereby twice a year, everyone puts stuff outside their houses and anyone us free to help themselves. At the end of the day the council come round and take away anything that's still there, recycle anything that can be recycled and dispose of anything that can't.

Someone I worked with did this as a volunteer and found it very satisfying.

ana I only took the most basic qualification for literacy tutors, its not recognised nowadays, therefore I only ever worked as a volunteer. I think its something you never get away from. Its not like teaching in a school as the clients (I wont call them pupils) all want to be helped and they almost all feel embarrassed so it has to be confidential. I found time to help my neighbour for years, informally helping him to understand official forms, bank statements etc. I worked in a centre for literacy tuition until it was closed and now literacy work is done as part of the local college, disguised as 'basic skill' or 'lifeskills' but all the tutors have to have a degree or a 'cert ed' which I have never been able to afford. I also think that everyone should be able to read and write well and I have been very happy to work for nothing.

My daughter used to live in a different part of town - all she could afford in rent at the time and not the most salubrious of areas, though she had lovely neighbours and actually really enjoyed her time there. If she was throwing anything out she would put it in the service lane, just outside her back gate and it would be gone in next to no time. Items like an old coffee table (badly stained), a printer (needed attention), a TV/DVD unit (nothing wrong with it, but too cheap to be worth selling). There were numerous other things too, which I forget. Much quicker and cheaper than taking it to the local tip and she liked to think that her cast offs were actually being used and maybe enjoyed by others.
She misses this recycling facility now she has moved to a better area

I got a very old but serviceable typewriter years ago which we then swapped for a portable; a couple of nice books filched from a neighbour's skip and saw some quite nice furniture wrecked and soaked by rain after being thrown into the same skip (family throwing out when she went into a home - why didn't they just put things in the garage for neighbours to help themselves?).

I think you are supposed to ask but .....

My daughter stopped her car beside a skip the other day as we were driving past, and asked me to hop out and grab a small scale brightly painted wooden boat. When I asked her why? she said it had some life left in it yet and we must honour the fact that it was "handmade" by "saving" it from the skip. It looks home made and as if it was specially made for someone - a grandchild perhaps? Anyway it has made a very nice planter.

If upcycling from skips is stealing, perhaps we need skips to have disclaimer notices on them? I'm sure most people don't mind someone else taking discards away from their skip.

Then the only time it would be stealing is if the renter of the skip specifies, by hiring a skip that has no disclaimer, that they don't want anyone to take stuff (though why they wouldn't is beyond me).

TBH, I think we should assume the presence of a disclaimer.

Technically it may be stealing but it seems to me to be a bit churlish to object to someone removing something that you obviously don't want yourself. Actually, if people remove something - it leaves more room for your own rubbish.

I think it is very much more annoying when people start throwing stuff INTO your very expensive skip. The elderly gentleman down the road came over in broad daylight and was attempting to put something into our skip but, because of its height, was having some difficulty. My husband went out and threw it in for him - which made me laugh.

Speaking as someone who has 'upcycled' from skips, yes, apparently it is stealing unless you ask first. If you can find anyone to ask!

But you mentioned people who empty the rubbish, clean windows, djen - people who work hard for a living, are respectable and responsible adults (one presumes) who will bring their children up to be the same.

ethel is talking about the irresponsible, the workshy and drug addicts as neighbours whose children know no better - and I have friends who have attempted to teach these children and have been threatened (and thumped on at least one occasion) by their parents if they dared to suggest their child could be a problem in school.

And yes, mine all went to very 'mixed' schools as there is no choice in our area. So I have seen it from the point of view of a parent and from the point of view of teachers who were my close friends.

And twice, in different areas of the country, we have experience of travellers parking themselves next to DGC's schools and the mess was indescribable. Their children were urinating and defecating in the hedge between the waste ground and the infant school.

There are different types of travellers, but I am sure you know that!

What's wrong with taking stuff from a skip? It's called recycling. I do not count it as stealing. If you wanted it, it would not be in your skip, would it?

I taught literacy and numeracy to adults as well, ethel, at one time. One thing it taught me to do was not to make sweeping statements about whole groups of people.

I didn't know you'd spent years being a literacy tutor, ethel. What made you give that up?

btw I have nothing against gypsies, however the travellers nowadays seem to be just out to make a quick buck in any easy way they can. I have read novels about romanies and found them romantic. Nowadays they just do gardening and odd jobs. I would tolerate them better if they did not steal (I caught a gang raiding my skip) or hoard rubbish.
If I met some who wanted to live in a decent way despite having a bad start in life I would probably get on with them. There is a girl like this who works in a local school and has turned her back on travellers, she is well liked and got lots of qualifications -good for her.

I am not a snob despite what you all think, I will help anyone, years of being a literacy tutor has shown me that all kinds of people want a better life and will strive for it and I will help them in any way I can. It is just the no hopers I cannot tolerate.

Am I so wrong to want my DGD to be protected from rough undisciplined kids whose parents haven't got any decent parenting skills. I don't see it as wrong to talk about children in this way at all. Its not their fault but it doesn't endear me in any way. I prefer pretty, well dressed little girls and smart clean little boys with good manners. Even DGD who is just past two will introduce herself and say Hi, how are you.

Hear, hear! I was brought up with that too, dj.

eloethen, I try to see all sides of an argument. I have little tolerance of people who let their kids 'run wild' and it is hard to teach little ones who to mix with so they don't copy bad manners/behaviour, but I also feel sympathy with those like I was, living on a run down estate. There doesn't have to be 'right' and 'wrong', 'black' and 'white'.

Are their no families like me who by no fault of their own had to sell a nice house in a good area because of redundancy then became widowed and had to live with tarts and drug addicts etc on an estate. I found it hard that the council treated everyone the same, as if we were all potential layabouts. I was respectable and tried so hard to save and bring DD up properly. I could have gone boozing/dancing but I did not want to end up with another man, I kept myself dedicated to being a good mother. I can hold my head up high/worked hard and brought my DD up well. The few families I knew who were respectable soon bought houses and moved away as I did.

I suppose it could be because my father is related to Romany gypsies, although I did not know it at the time. We do not mind mixing with all kinds of people.

Nits like clean hair. My granddaughters have had them. My grandson hasn't because his hair is always short, I presume.

My children went to schools where they walked through council estates, and went to the schools with council estate kids. They played with them. In fact, I did not know who came from the private or council houses, they all looked just as scruffy. I actually dared to have council estate kids in my house, I assume.
I brought my kids up to believe that everybody is important; the man who cleans the windows or empties the bin is just as important as the headmaster or the vicar. I give those examples because my sons played with the sons of all these people.

I do think we have been lucky with the schools our kids have landed in, but because of that, and because we weren't in especially "middle class" areas, I also think our luck, if that's what it is, is unlikely to have been unusual. Perhaps the fact that we have lived in towns rather than actual cities is what has made the difference? I don't know.

But the rest of what you describe, ethelt, is beyond my ken. I can only say I'm sorry you have had such bad experiences.

I've had to deloise my kids several times. It's not a big deal. One just has to be thorough and systematic with a nit comb. Head lice aren't snobbish.

Earlier in this thread you say:

"Its difficult to get across what I am trying to say. I think that if someone has come from a privileged background they might not understand the fears/problems/social deprivations that someone might face who is not so well off".

On the one hand you seem to have a problem with "privileged" people who don't understand the issues regarding social deprivation but later on in the thread you describe the children of gypsies and the unemployed as "brats" "scum" and "horrible". I feel it is wrong to talk about children in that way.

You describe what you consider to be the middle class assumptions of a health visitor with whom you had some dealings, and her lack of understanding of how you lived. And yet you are showing a good deal less tolerance and understanding of people that you obviously consider to be inferior to yourself.

Even people that you would expect to know better - those who have attended public schools costing upwards of £30,000 a year - have been known to behave like hooligans and thugs - trashing hotels and treating staff like rubbish. And I think you may find that many middle class parents are equally capable of letting their children run wild and treat property and people with disrespect.

"Good" schools and middle class lifestyles do not necessarily lead to courteous, considerate and socially responsible people. I should imagine there are children living in big houses, going on nice outings, reading books and going to "good" schools whose parents have attained their wealth by way of some very questionable means.

By the way, I remember my daughter getting nits and she attended a fairly middle class school - nits are no respecter of class.